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 Post subject: Bush announces manned Mars, Moon missions
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:31 am 
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<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3381531.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3381531.stm</a>

In the interest of fairness, some people do seem to think that this is an empty gesture, an insincere attempt on Bush's part to seem visionary for the current election year. They may be right. On the other hand, I think that, if Bush is serious and if the inevitable budget hassles can be worked out, this has the potential to be one of the coolest things ever.

Besides the allure of getting our species permanently off-planet, the potential economic and scientific payoff is tremendous. The Moon's mineral resources show promise for cheap fusion, while Mars provides a good jumping-off point for the asteroids (each of which holds billions of dollars in metals). And that's not even touching on the development payoff: solving the technical hurdles of long-term space travel means benefits for many other disciplines as well.

Do you think that this a good thing? Debate and be merry.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 8:03 am 
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I think it's a good stepping stone to later advances, but by itself, reaching the moon again is worthless. Unless we can KEEP advancing, which is unlikely because of the administration changing with each new president and coming up with entirely new plans, it will just be a waste of money. If we can manage to be coherent about it and achieve some practical uses for the technology, then it's a Good Thing (tm).


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:42 pm 
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Depends if you believe that we got to the moon in the first place. Some of those crack pots have good points.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:48 pm 
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Ero, we aren't talking about just reaching the moon again. The computer science dept at my former college happened to be headed up by one of the guys workin at NASA getting this stuff done. This has been in the works for a while, and Dubya is just the one that gets to make it public. Basically, they are talking a large spacestation between the Earth and the Moon in a Libration Point* and another in the Mars & Sun Libration point. From there, they would be send landers down for routine reconnosance on the Moon and possible building of structures to colonize in a way. Mars would mainly be umanned at first and eventually would lead to the same things.


*Libration Point - A special LaGrangian Point** between two objects in space where there is absolutely zero gravity. There is only one Libration point per two bodies, but it is constantly moving relative to its respective bodies.

**LaGrangian Point - A point between two objects in space where gravity is greatly reduced. There are a a large number of LaGrangian points between two objects, and there is a series that connect Libration points.

What is the point of those? By using those points, large payloads can safely be sent through space at nearly minimal cost (in space terms anyways) very safely and securely. Basically, there is a small gravitational pull to the Libration Points, so halfway to Mars, they would be pulled towards their Libration Point destination and free of the potential 6 minute delay from Earth to Mars and set up with a max of a 7 light second delay.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:59 pm 
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...That sounds AWFULLY like a practical use that I mentioned earlier. You know, in my post. Which I assumed you read. Baka.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:01 pm 
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I was meaning the whole notion that we would just be reaching the moon again. The moon is nothing. We actually have a lander on Mars right now successfully taking pictures. With modern technology, our little orbiting rock is pretty simple to reach.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:02 pm 
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Which is precisely my point. If it's JUST reaching the moon, it's totally worthless. If we actually ACCOMPLISH something from it, it's not.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:04 pm 
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And I was saying that we aren't just reaching the moon, so we are accomplishing something.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:07 pm 
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That remains to be seen.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:15 pm 
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Exactly what are the estimated figures of cost production and research for this project? Even if we succeed many decades from now, transporting valuable resources and minerals will make little impact on funding the economy. Already I dont find space exploration to be an economical remedy because its very costly.

In the short-run, most people will have doubts due to the expansive funding this project will require. However, in the long-run the scientific benefits may allude people from the economical detriments (figures.)

I dont know how space exploration is funded; whether its anually or in some different method of payment. All I can say is that the United States economy will take a toll for the worst in the long-run. Within another 10 years, if the project is approved, the government will be in another several billion dollars deficit.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:38 pm 
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Though the idea of using the Moon as a stepping stone for future exploration makes much more sense now that I have actually heard of Libration Points (before it sounded ridiculous due to the costs of overcoming gravity with each launch). However colonization on the moon is still a shoddy idea methinks. It has zilch atmosphere and no resources. The only thing it would be good for is outposts and maybe telescopes on the dark side (the ideal place).

For widespread colonization I think Mars is by far the primary choice.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 3:16 pm 
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dammit we need a space elevator

oh you know what i mean

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 3:26 pm 
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Dear God, I agree with Bush on something.

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Although this is probably another way to help him cruise into re-election, so we can continue being governed by the Dastardly wing of the Republican Party, at least we'll have totally cool spacemen and spacewomen while it happens.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 8:00 pm 
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Why do we need a manned mission to Mars? What can a manned mission do that robots couldn't? Let's see:

1) Ad hoc: in case we meet any aliens, a space crew could (I suppose) conduct impromptu negotiations.

2) Increased "reflex" time: We'd gain about six or seven minutes on the speed with which we react to stuff on Mars, which doesn't happen very fast in the first place.

3) Emotional value: Spiffy, we've put humans on another planet, cool!

For these few reasons, I think a manned Mars mission is unjustified. Anyone got any other reasons?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 8:33 pm 
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ollie wrote:
dammit we need a space elevator

oh you know what i mean
And cars that fold up into suitcases.

oh you know what i mean


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 9:00 pm 
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Lucis Spei wrote:
Why do we need a manned mission to Mars? What can a manned mission do that robots couldn't? Let's see:

1) Ad hoc: in case we meet any aliens, a space crew could (I suppose) conduct impromptu negotiations.

2) Increased "reflex" time: We'd gain about six or seven minutes on the speed with which we react to stuff on Mars, which doesn't happen very fast in the first place.

3) Emotional value: Spiffy, we've put humans on another planet, cool!

For these few reasons, I think a manned Mars mission is unjustified. Anyone got any other reasons?


You forgot a few.

-Adaptability. Humans, even in pressure suits (I'm not going to say space suits, because Mars isn't exactly space), have many times the dexterity of any robot we can build now or in the foreseeable future. We also have enough functional flexibility to improvise, which is something our robots simply can't do. Remember how much trouble Express is having with a partially collapsed airbag? An <i>airbag</i>, for gods' sake. This is the biggest advantage, really, and the most compelling argument for manned missions.

-Bandwidth. Any unmanned Mars mission is limited by its transmitting capacity, but human bandwidth is essentially infinite, especially when augmented by low-weight storage media like the humble digital camera. Also, don't forget that at least some of the people we'll be sending to Mars will probably be qualified scientists; I'd be willing to bet that a good geologist (as an example) would be able to get much more from a first-hand look than any amount of remote photos. It's the difference between seeing a picture of a fire and seeing a fire.

-Fault tolerance and correction. We have Apollo 13 on one hand, and the Mars Polar Lander on the other. You do the math.

-Precedent. Sooner or later, we're going to have to expand off-planet. A manned Mars mission will give us valuable insight as to how to do that.

Humans are just better for most things, as awkward as we are off of Earth (and we are very awkward). There's a reason why we use human crews to service the ISS and major satellites, and communication with low-earth orbit is <i>much much</i> easier than communication with Mars... or even the Moon.

ollie wrote:
dammit we need a space elevator


A space elevator would make this kind of thing much easier and cheaper, that's for sure. It's too bad we don't have the technology to do it right now. Maybe in ten, twenty, fifty years, when we have nanotubes figured out...


And <a href="http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_mm/ob_techorbit1.html">here's</a> some information for you on Lagrange points. They're actually fixed relative to the major bodies involved, although those major bodies do have to be orbiting each other for anything but the L1 point to exist. I assume that your "liberation points" refer to the L1 point, which is in fact the only place where gravity cancels; note, however, that only the L4 and L5 points are stable. You could correct a station's orbit, of course, but that means fuel.

P-M


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 2:41 am 
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*folds revolutio into a suitcase, dismembered anime girl style*

where was i, ah...

once we are done with harnessing the power of the sun this stuff will be a whole lot easier, fuel efficency wise etc, but yeah, humans are far better than a robot, while you can get a robot to do a specific task very well, you'd need a specific robot to do every specific task you can possabl;y think of, or send a human out with a few basic tools and some sandwiches

as regards the weather on Mars, depending on where on the planet you are (and who you believe) it's not much worse than Earths polar regions, and we send guys off there to mess around all the time

just don't think about The Thing and you'll be fine

anyway, working in a low ressure environment's far easier than a high pressure one, working 30meters under water is harsh for instance, you're down at 4x atomspheric pressure and each movement is 4x harder, even breathing, meaning you use about 4x the air as well

basicly as long as you can work out a way to carry enough food and drink over there for the duration of the mission you'll be fine, the surface of Mars hould be far nicer to work with than the Moon, less scary as well as it's a far bigger planet, or that could just be my vertigo manifesting in a fear of falling off the moon as it's so small...

just try not to blow up the shuttle this time guys...

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:05 pm 
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just try not to blow up the shuttle this time guys...


OMGZ j00 lVl43D 73l-l P0l_171C4l_l_Y 1NC0RR3C7 57473lVl3lV7!!1!1!!!!

Seriously though, I think (Read:Hope) that NASA has learned from mistakes.

As for landing Humans on Mars...it's inevitable. Humans are inherently a species that want to explore the unknown. We're going sooner or later. It's one of those "One small step for man" type of situations.
I think the moon could be used successfully as a stop over for our space craft. Stopping to refuel and load up with whatever necessary supplies is very possible, and in the long run, will save time and money.

I say let's get our asses in gear and actually DO something worthwhile.

Oh, and before I forget...anyone who says we never made it to the moon is full of it. It's like saying the Holocaust never happened.

*starts singing 'fly me to the moon*


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:51 pm 
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The thing that NASA is working hard up right now is an artificial intelligence at about the level of a mammal's "Lizard Brain." Basically, they want to compensate for the 7 or so second delay they would have unmanned from orbit around Mars by making an artificial intelligence with basic survival reflexes. If its too hot, don't touch it, don't fall over into a cliff, etc.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:52 pm 
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Oh, and before I forget...anyone who says we never made it to the moon is full of it.


FOX programming tried to draw American viewers for a 1-hour special based on this assumption.

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It's like saying the Holocaust never happened.


Don't give the FOX network ideas...

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