ZOMBIE FORUMS

It's a stinking, shambling corpse grotesquely parodying life.
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:24 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:22 am 
Offline
Local

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:33 am
Posts: 187
Location: Undisclosed at this time.
This is a discussion of the XM-29 OICW, not whether hitting children turns them into good people. Even if you dont agree that hitting is ineffective and even harmful, you have to admit that blowing a kid to peices with 20mm HE rounds isnt an effective punishment for when he doesnt eat his dinner.

Meh, what can I say? I still like it. Its not going to become the standard arm for every soldier, and it shouldnt, but I can see it being a damn useful support weapon in the hands of a soldier smart enough to use it.

_________________
I came to see the CIRCUS, not some half dressed tart spouting dire warnings. -BG2, Shadows of Amn


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:04 pm 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 3142
Location: Detroit
Cenwood wrote:
This is a discussion of the XM-29 OICW, not whether hitting children turns them into good people. Even if you dont agree that hitting is ineffective and even harmful, you have to admit that blowing a kid to peices with 20mm HE rounds isnt an effective punishment for when he doesnt eat his dinner.

Meh, what can I say? I still like it. Its not going to become the standard arm for every soldier, and it shouldnt, but I can see it being a damn useful support weapon in the hands of a soldier smart enough to use it.


Problem is the current plan is for the OCIW to replace the M-16 completely... and it would be a one weapon fits all for the most part.

everyone gets the he grenades and everyone gets to use full auto... other weapons are still differently distributed from by understanding...

_________________
Why are you not wearing my pants?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 2:42 pm 
Offline
Addict

Joined: Mon May 13, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 1294
Location: Middle of goddamn nowhere, Georgia
As far as I know currently, they're still revamping the XM29 OICW because of its weight. I've read a few articles in the Army Times and Soldier of Fortune about the XM8, the KE component(basically just a G36 in a new shell), and it looks fairly promising to me. Of course, I have no field experience with that sort of stuff, but eh.

_________________
"My relationship with my SAW[M249 Squad Automatic Weapon] has lasted longer than my marriage did." -One of the guys in my platoon.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 3:21 pm 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 6:38 pm
Posts: 3148
Location: Gay bar at the end of the universe
Rupert The Airborne Rat wrote:
As far as I know currently, they're still revamping the XM29 OICW because of its weight. I've read a few articles in the Army Times and Soldier of Fortune about the XM8, the KE component(basically just a G36 in a new shell), and it looks fairly promising to me. Of course, I have no field experience with that sort of stuff, but eh.
I did some reading up on it and the OICW may be dropped as a whole weapon system. They HE portion of it and the rifle part (the XM-8) may be reworked and put into service separately.

If the Land Warrior system does ever get off its feet the OICW might be more effective, though right now all I hear is alot of bitching about it weighing too damn much. Though I have no experience of the kind, I don't want to feel weighted down if I am getting shot at.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 3:47 pm 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 1349
I was in the DC area recently delivering some firearms to a few Govt sponsored arms exhibits, and was givin a taste of the new land warrior systems weapons (including live fire at an indoor range, sometimes it is nice to have freinds in hidden places!) and it just felt like I was handling an old M60 (also called the 'pig' by those of use who had to hump one around) clad in plastic. It was bulky in its size, and seemed on the heavy side.
It currently is more on side of being a crew served weapon, due to its lack of quick mobility. I would never have been able to mak a rush with the thing. It is a LONG ways from practical deployment.
Better to develop out the caseless weapon and mount a 40 MM autoloader on it, 5 or 6 rounds on the 40 MM.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 4:14 pm 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 17, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 2242
Location: http://the-expatriates.com/
MR. Dead wrote:
It currently is more on side of being a crew served weapon, due to its lack of quick mobility. I would never have been able to mak a rush with the thing. It is a LONG ways from practical deployment.
Better to develop out the caseless weapon and mount a 40 MM autoloader on it, 5 or 6 rounds on the 40 MM.


totally, i'm not sure where firearms can go after this point other than caseless, althought it's as radical a step as from shot/charge muzzleloading to self fully incased bullet breachloading rifles and will be resisted as they were, although in this case we have the G11, a perfectly servicable gun, just need to re-train everyone on how to use it, hardly a big shift seeing as bullpup guns (yes, i'm on about those again) are in front line use with a number of armies with no big trouble, it loads differently but otherwise is still a rifle, if ppl can get around the odd look of the G11 then it'll be great

as for the OICW, as a scaled up crew served gun it would be great, slap it onto a vehicle platform in place of a SAW or 40mm GL and you'd be laughing, longer barrel for the rifle/mg and bigger caliber for the grenade launcher and a stable platform to fire from and carry and maintain the thing, have it as the medium between firing an M16 out of the door and slapping a full powered turret on top with a firecontrol and targeting computer, also you can dismount it for ground use, but as a support weapon (thing tripod mounted MGs) not an assualt weapon

on a side note, 1 in 1 tracer looks pretty fired at night, a kilometer of red streaks lighting up the sky and pattering onto a target is a great sight on a rainy night

_________________
ollie.
---------------
now your tears are worth it


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 11:58 pm 
Offline
Addict

Joined: Mon May 13, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 1294
Location: Middle of goddamn nowhere, Georgia
I don't see why we'd need the XM29 as a crew-served weapon mounted on vehicles. I mean, we already have the Mk19 automatic grenade launcher, and that fucks shit up from my understanding. They told us the 40mm grenades it launches are not compatible with the M203, because they are much more powerful. Plus, if I'm driving around in a humvee, I don't want to have to take the trouble of lasing my target before firing and all that crap, I just want the fucker to go down as fast as possible.

_________________
"My relationship with my SAW[M249 Squad Automatic Weapon] has lasted longer than my marriage did." -One of the guys in my platoon.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:10 am 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 2885
Location: San Antonio
Old conservative guy here to voice concerns over caseless ammo, My only worry is whether you can make durable, accurate caseless ammo. If You have no case what keeps the wad of crap attatched to the bullet stay together? Can it both be durable and burn cleanly? If it can no real objections.

_________________
We used to play for silver, Now we play for life.
One's for sport and one's for blood
At the point of a knife, Now the die is shaken
Now the die must fall,
There ain't a winner in this game
Who don't go home with all, Not with all...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:59 am 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 17, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 2242
Location: http://the-expatriates.com/
yeah, if you check out some of the reports on the G11 (and caseless aqmmo) testing they seem to come out very positivly, at first there were predictable issues withthe ammo 'cooking off' in a hot chamber sending the thing cyclic untill it emptied it's (lage capacity) mag, but chemical wizardry sorted that out, and not (well, then) the round was as reliable as a metal cased one, both can be damaged easily enough, but the caseless came out as just as safe and powerful as a 'normal' round, with the whole weight/wastage of the shower of brass that goes with full auto being far reduced, the bullet is basicly encapsulated within the propllent block (ne need to be round is there?) and it's all consumed when fired, solving the 2nd problem of caseless ammo, clogging up the works with unburnt crap.

basicly the German army gave up on it with the fall of the Berlin wall, suddenly East German wasn't a threat and their reunified army was far bigger and more costly to equip, also the standard NATO bitching about keeping all ammo calibers to 5.56mm made them elect to go for teh G36 in the end

as for the MK19 40mm, yeah, larger rounds, not compatable wit the current shoulder/underbarrel 40mm systems (it was started as a naval close support gun for river patrol craft) but as it's part of a turret system already (with some targeting equipment extra to the basic model) it is only a small move to slap all of the extra stuff from the OICW onto a version of it, sure, you can still fire over open sights, but this gives you more options for sure, in a streetfight you'll just go full uto and point it in the area of your target, at longer open ranges a laser/targeting package is a very good thing

also when slapping a bunch of high tech targeting equipment onto something, you might as well put it on something BIG to maximise it's effect, rather than a poxy little 20mm 'grenade'

i put ' marks there becasue i'm betting it's called a grenade to get around the Geneva Convention excluding large caliber/explosive bullets being used against infantry, a 20mm cannon and 20mm grenade launcher are essentially the same thing (technicalities about propellent method/muzzle velocity aside) apart from their legality, something some people actually seem to care about

_________________
ollie.
---------------
now your tears are worth it


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:06 pm 
Offline
Local

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:33 am
Posts: 187
Location: Undisclosed at this time.
Lifyre wrote:
Problem is the current plan is for the OCIW to replace the M-16 completely...


No it isnt, is it?

Article wrote:
The OICW will not replace all of the M16s/M4s. The current U.S. Army Basis of Issue (BOI) is 4 OICW weapon systems per 9-man squad.


Or has the plan changed since the original article was written, or something?

I think electronics in firearms is the future, to be honest. If its too heavy/complicated for the average soldier, then yeah, that future is not now, but I dont think it should be dismissed just because it has some teething problems in testing.

Iam disappointed, though...its 2004. 2004, for gods sake, and I havnt seen hide nor hair of a laser rifle, a Battlemech, or even powered armor. How backward are we, for gods sake?

_________________
I came to see the CIRCUS, not some half dressed tart spouting dire warnings. -BG2, Shadows of Amn


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:51 pm 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 1349
In regards to caseless ammo and the G11:
I was a short part of the testing in the late 80s-early 90s, when the DOD was searching for a replacement (possible) of the ol' M16. 4 weapons were in the running. One was a updated M16 type, one was the prototypes of the G11, a bullpup style, and another that I personally labeled a BB-gun (so much like a frikin' toy it sucked).
The caseless ammo was given to us in various testing formats, including being soaked (and one case nearly boiled) for many days in sea brine.
It fired flawlessly. Even cartridges that were knocked around to crack fired (they had a unique sound to them, it was strange). I was impressed. I truly thought that the caseless ammo would be adopted, regardless of the weapon chosen (it was the colt model that is now the A3, A4, and M4 models).
The only problem the G11 models seemed to have was the slightly higher learning curve to disasembly and clearing, and cleaning. Being of a higher level of intelligent than what the average grunt of the time, I did not see that as a problem, but the Brass did, and so chose the simpler item.
The caseless ammo allowed for flechette rounds (beauty against body armour), Buckshot, AP, Tracer, and standard FMJ, and allowed a 38% in the number of rounds that could be carried in comparrison to the 5.56mm rounds.
Accuracy was close to equalling the M16, and allowances for optical sights was better than on the current M16 variants > read: made to mount a scope.
My only gripe about the G11 model was the length of the magazine. At 45 rounds the clip was a long as my thigh. Anything longer than 9 inches becomes a bother to someone manuvering in the mud and such.
Cripes, Now I am getting in need of a firing range fix........... must kill targets.
Better yet, time to go kill some cute and fuzzy bunnies (flea bitten plague machines!) and make some stew.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:25 pm 
Offline
Addict

Joined: Mon May 13, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 1294
Location: Middle of goddamn nowhere, Georgia
You got to fire. . . the G11 prototype used by the Army during that testing. . . and as of yet, the closest I've gotten is seeing the one on display at the Infantry museum at Ft. Benning. . .

*slams head on desk a few times*

I haven't fired a weapon since november, and my trigger finger is itching.

From what I've read about the G11 series, they're great rifles, but if the learning curve is slightly higher as you say, it might not be best for the average grunts here. Right now the drinking situation has gotten so bad that the battalion commander has threatened letters of reprimand instead of the usual Article 15s for underage drinkers.

Oh, and I completely agree with you Lifyre, I want to be stomping around in a Mech loaded with nasty weaponry.

_________________
"My relationship with my SAW[M249 Squad Automatic Weapon] has lasted longer than my marriage did." -One of the guys in my platoon.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:37 pm 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 1349
Just to get your blood pressure up some more: The 2 M1 garrands I inherited are on teir way to that very museum. They were still in the original shipping boxes with cosmoline coated paper wraps, and were sequential serial numbers. Value: 27,000 us dollars each. The M1 carbines (same condition, sequential serial numbers) are on their way to home of the puking chicken, er, the 101st, est value ea: 80,000 us dollars (they were the airborne soldier set w/cases and mags/accesories).
No one will pay that kind of money for the stuff, but with an appraised value, that is what the IRS (fuck you, leaching bastards) places a tax upon. So, its either donate and kill the tax liability, or start robbing banks to pay the taxes.
I really would have liked them on the walls of my office or den, but such is life.
The neat stuff is what didnt get declared or appraised (an unfired druganov for example). Summer will be fun on the firing range.

Well crap, now that I have drug this way off topic, I apologise, and return you to your regularly scheduled programing, already in progress.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 5:29 pm 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 17, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 2242
Location: http://the-expatriates.com/
well i think we've just about exhaused this topic anyway, next gun topic anyone? (we've just about got through caseless as well)

_________________
ollie.
---------------
now your tears are worth it


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group