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 Post subject: Forum Administration in theory and practice
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 5:05 pm 
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Obviously, a lot of tensions are running high because of the Grey thing.

But it raises some interesting issues, relevant to all internet forums.

So in a more detached sense, when do you consider it appropriate for a forum administrator to ban a member?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 5:20 pm 
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When he/she breaks set rules and about 3/4 of the forumites agree to it. I'm all for the democratic style forum, with rule enforcement. Admins with ultimate power to ban whomever they deem worthy or whoever personally offends them never bode well with most people. It starts more arguments than it solves.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 5:45 pm 
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When it comes to banning I believe a thread should be started with a poll on it. It should be extremely straightforward and as unbiased as possible.

Three choices for banning:
Yes
No
Indifferent (read: the Admin's choice)

I am personally not supportive of banning anyone who isn't filling the forums with spam (i.e. one thread every 30 seconds). Though it would really all depend on the individual.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 5:52 pm 
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Good idea. Polls would see what the community wants. And probably a stickied thread with some loose rules, and the consequences of breaking those rules. I have a feeling that asshattery would be less of an issue if there were actual consequences tied to it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:06 pm 
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But there's a problem. There are no permanent consequences. You can ban a user, but they'll just make a new account. Ban an IP (not sure how) and they'll just plug in from a different location. No matter what the punishment is, there's no way to make it stick if the person is determined enough to be heard. When people want to annoy others, there's nothing anyone can do to stop it short of killing them.

On another note, a democratic decision for banning is a good idea so that those that lose the poll can see how many people were affected and agree with the resolution.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:20 pm 
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you can never completely prevent someone from posting, but you can make it such a fucking hassle that they won't. for example, Grey's entire subnet might be banned. it's possible, quite easy to do, and would prevent Grey from posting on his current ISP, regardless of whether or not he's using dial-up.

but yeah. I'm going to go deal with this.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:34 pm 
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Trust me you can get someone to leave this place and never come back. When i was first around there was a fool named treespeaker I beleive that had rubbed many people the wrong way. We made it very clear he was unwanted and he left for good.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 10:17 pm 
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I remember treespeaker... (oh, right, unregistered lurker dosen't really count)

before I say my opinion, are we permitted to make referance to the current issue, or shall it be completely abstract?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 10:25 pm 
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make references all you want.

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Let me put it to you this way: I earned capital in the campaign, political capital, and now I intend to spend it. It is my style.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 3:30 am 
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Lothar Killaxe wrote:
Trust me you can get someone to leave this place and never come back. When i was first around there was a fool named treespeaker I beleive that had rubbed many people the wrong way. We made it very clear he was unwanted and he left for good.


Um...treespeaker came back, and was actually a functioning member of the forum for a little while.

see here

Anyway, "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibilty"

So now I'm off to shoot my sticky webbing over everything

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 4:09 am 
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So what did TSC think when he returned, I know there was some bad blood between those two.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:26 am 
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Lothar Killaxe wrote:
So what did TSC think when he returned, I know there was some bad blood between those two.


I think TSC might've made up with him.

But there was the warning about "screw up again and TSC will get you."

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 10:54 am 
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Well, let's make certain assumptions about communities in general:

1) A community is a bunch of people interacting with one another

2) In order to get anything done in a community, there has to be some sort of framework to build upon. This is both the medium in which the community opperates and the system of rules which they operate under.

3) When this framework breaks down or is pointlessly challenged, the community itself suffers from a lack of cohesion.

So, communities in general are gatherings of people, for which a set of rules and protocols are needed, as well as a medium of expression, and when either the medium or the protocols are disrupted the community suffers.

Now, for forums such as these, we've got the people, we've got the medium, and we've got the fucking rules. Now, lord knows that we've all busted these things once or a dozen times, but the thing is, nobody cared. The porn we posted was appreciated, the insults we hurled weren't officially complained about, and the obcene acts have all been amusing. These things were accepted for the most part, and when they weren't, we've stopped and/or apologized. Moderators and Admins are for when this breaks down, and people step over the line, keep going, and never look back. This is when a ban in necessary, and should be enforced.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 11:11 am 
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Quote:
You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws


HOLY SHIT, WE'RE SUPPOSED TO FOLLOW THOSE?!

(those are the standard phpbb rules.)

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 2:10 pm 
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The best type of administration is one where the people are not involved at all. I mean that to the extent that they don't even know certain types of moderating are taking place. When everyone has a say, it just muddles up the situation. Nobody is bothered, however, if they are none the wiser. How many people here noticed Ace and his multiple accounts trolling/spamming? Not many people, I would think, as it was dealt with immediately and quietly.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:09 pm 
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The Baron wrote:
Quote:
You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws


HOLY SHIT, WE'RE SUPPOSED TO FOLLOW THOSE?![/b]

(those are the standard phpbb rules.)


I know, I if you'l read my post, I responded to that sentiment. I was only pointing out that on some level we all aggreed not to be jackasses, and it's not ridiculous to expect some level of enforcement.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:27 am 
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krylex wrote:
The best type of administration is one where the people are not involved at all. I mean that to the extent that they don't even know certain types of moderating are taking place. When everyone has a say, it just muddles up the situation. Nobody is bothered, however, if they are none the wiser. How many people here noticed Ace and his multiple accounts trolling/spamming? Not many people, I would think, as it was dealt with immediately and quietly.


I agree that administration would work better without everyone involved, however I disagree with the concept that as long as nobody realises that moderation is occuring nobody cares. If this were the case then nobody would have said a thing when Grey was banned from #en yet wasn't from the forums, whereas in fact there was considerable bitching and moaning. It is cynical to say that nobody is bothered by moderation if it isn't occuring. If you believe that do you also agree with these statements?

Jim: The public does care that this money is misspent.
Sir Humphrey: With respect Minister, they care that it should not be seen to be misspent.

Sir Humphrey: Nobody was remotely concerned about what was really being done with their money, what outraged them was being told about it.
(Both from Yes Minister, The Compassionate Society)

Ace and his multiple accounts trolling/spamming was nowhere near the problem that Grey is purely because he was a n00b. Noone really cared about him cos he hadn't built up any kind of relationship with members of the forums and so people were apathetic at worst with regard to what happened. By comparison Grey has been around a lot longer, and so people formed friendships with him. People are willing to defend their friends/people they know and so what ends up occurring is polarisation of the forum. I can't think of a way to solve that type of problem amicably, however in that sort of situation it shouldn't just be one moderator/admin making the decision for that leads to mass acusations of power abuse. A better solution (maybe) would be for a group of moderators/admin, probably those modeators whose forums are affected plus admins, to vote on whether to ban or not ban. This would show people that it isn't one person going on a power trip, and assuming the conclave of mods were to announce their decision and give reason as to that decision it would give a semblance of democracy and openness. Since generally mods and admin are trustworthy then in conclavethey are likely to come to a decision that the people will accept. Of course I may just be going on about something that goes on already but haven't noticed...


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:50 am 
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There doesnt need to be a vote. At the same time, I dont like the idea of not knowing when people get banned...just because the public get pissed about how the tax money is spent, doesnt mean that ignorance is bliss and that the public should be deceived.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:01 am 
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I'm not saying the public should be decieved at all. The people in charge for a system like mine to work, though, must be extremely just. Otherwise, it can turn into something much worse than before.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:07 am 
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Vass wrote:
Jim: The public does care that this money is misspent.
Sir Humphrey: With respect Minister, they care that it should not be seen to be misspent.

Sir Humphrey: Nobody was remotely concerned about what was really being done with their money, what outraged them was being told about it.
(Both from Yes Minister, The Compassionate Society)

But in the end, Humphrey always wins anyway. It's not until Yes, Prime Minister that Hacker starts to get one-up on him. [/random observation]

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