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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:06 am 
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Hasufin wrote:
The widespread stricture against incest is largely justified by the supposed health risks to a child so conceived - modern medicine can adequately avoid that problem, though again how that is to be implemented is worthy of discussion; notwithstanding once again matters of consent.


Bullshit, you cant rule out incest because of the child it may produce.

Contraceptives, vasectimies make an incestous relationship a most likely childless one, also does this mean its ok for a sister to blow her brother? That wont produce a child.

Why can't a father marry his son? No child will be produced there.

As you said, being disgusted is no excuse to ban the practice.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:13 am 
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And, unremarkably, I *didn't* call for it to be banned. Rather, I pointed out why it was banned in the past, and that this reason is (possibly) no longer justified. If you'd like, start another thread to explore reasons why incest should or should not be banned in greater detail.

This is venturing rather far afield from the actual thread topic. I'll summarize thusly: if you want to ban something, have a reason.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:22 am 
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This IS the topic. And if your too blind to see why, I recommend you trot off and stop pretending to have any kind of ability to think for yourself or debate with your own power.

The topic is "Should gay marriage be permitted, and why or why not"

I am making my case for why not. Without absolutes, there is no structure.

This is not off-topic, and if your too blind to see why it isnt, be off with you, clone.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:26 am 
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Then, directly, why should gay marriage be banned? What justification is there for this particular absolute?

It has, I think, been adequately covered that religious objections are not sufficient and that gay marriage would not unacceptably devalue heterosexual marriages. Do you have another reason beyond those?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:32 am 
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Yeah, I believe we spend have a page debating them. Its apparent that you dont actually think or debate and your just another stuck record indymedia whore.

Good day.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 2:51 am 
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Consensual love between human beings of the same gender is NOT the same as bestiality, incest, or underaged love.

An animal cannot properly consent, even if it can give mating signs, and sexual practices between human and animal have several major health risks assiociated with them, much more so then with gay people so dont use the tired old "Gay people are more suceptible to AIDS!" argument. Also, (and we are going into the bounds of personal opinion here) a stable, emotionally secure, equal relationship cannot occur between a man and a dog or a horse. Just cant happen.

Whatever contraception you use, there is ALWAYS a risk of pregnancy. There also cannot be an equal loving relationship between family members like that: Incest is always linked to psychological problems or one side taking advantage of the other side. I put it to you that the son has some kind of complex, and the father is almost certainly using his position of power and his emotional position as the boy's father to exploit him. The reason incest cannot work as a stable relationship model is for the same reason it happens, due to mixed up feelings of paternal or maternal or fraternal love fucking up sexual development and creating an unhealthy emotional relationship.

Love between young people and old people CAN occur. Age is not necessarily a sign of maturity, sexual or otherwise. However, the amount of pre-pubescent girls that fall in love with older men from the internet is completely staggering, for example, and the younger person may have confused ideas about love and may not even be fully sexually developed. If it really is a 100% true love relationship, the older person should wait for the younger person to fully mature, so as to be totally sure its an equal relationship and not exploitation of someones naivete.

Two unrelated, mature human males CAN and DO have perfectly acceptable and equal relationships, all the time. They are different to me (and I assume from your sentiments, you) in their sexual orientation, but this difference does not mean Iam in some way a better person or that I deserve more rights, or that Bob and Joe's marriage is going to comprimise my marriage with a girl. I dont see how saying "Two mature human beings can mutually agree to have sex or get married" is instantly going to lead to the argument "I can molest my daughter or my dog or the 11 year old kid from down the street".

I see the point you are trying to make, but refer you to reason 9: "Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract."

Ill do a search for what religions are ok with homosexuals, darksetyuna, but off the top of my head: many christians, Paganism and Neo-Paganism, Wiccans (I list them because I have received conflicting information on whether they are "pagans" or not), Mormonism, Unitarian Universalists, Orthodox Jews are divided and are starting to accept, non-orthodox jews wont have homosexual rabbis or anything, but are cool with the fact that gay people exist, and they are welcome to attend their congregations, old native american religions actually idolised gay peoples as having acheived a special level of something or other....

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 7:17 am 
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Thankee, yo. I was wondering when someone would do that.

Oh and let me make this debate even better … Unitarian Universalists are stupid.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:05 pm 
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The real question is, how can someone be gay when there are so many beautiful women?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:06 pm 
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Neo_BCN wrote:
The real question is, how can someone be gay when there are so many beautiful women?
Because there are so many absolutely irresistable men like you around. :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:08 pm 
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revolutio wrote:
Neo_BCN wrote:
The real question is, how can someone be gay when there are so many beautiful women?
Because there are so many absolutely irresistable men like you around. :wink:


Zoinks.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:27 pm 
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Neo_BCN wrote:
The real question is, how can someone be gay when there are so many beautiful women?


How can so many women be straight when there are so many beautiful women?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:41 pm 
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RMG wrote:
Neo_BCN wrote:
The real question is, how can someone be gay when there are so many beautiful women?


How can so many women be straight when there are so many beautiful women?


Because there are hott men like me.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:36 pm 
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Neo_BCN wrote:
RMG wrote:
Neo_BCN wrote:
The real question is, how can someone be gay when there are so many beautiful women?


How can so many women be straight when there are so many beautiful women?


Because there are hott men like me.


Nah, it's because they know you're the best they can hope for.



Ang Grey, you've lost; get over it. Hasu has repeatedly put forth a reasonable question that you've been unable to answer (i.e. "Even if we need certain absolutes, why does on of them have to be 'No gay marriages allowed'?").

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 4:51 am 
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Neo_BCN: Because beautiful women dont do it for them. Or they can be attracted to beautiful men as well as women. I dont pretend to completely understand gayness, but I dont need to be gay to accept homosexuality.

Darksetyuna: How so? They seem to rock, to me. "Hey, organised religion sucks, but some of the shit in the bible is good and some people like believing in god. Lets make a religion that preaches understanding, education and acceptance, and uses the bible and other religious texts as a good moral education tool, but encouraging people to make up their own mind about stuff rather then blindly do what we say. And everyone can join, christians, atheists, whatever."

And lets stop with this "You've lost" shit. Its a debate, you can't "lose" except if its a contest of some kind, and then you only "lose" the contest of public speaking, not because of your actual beliefs.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 3:25 pm 
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Lucis Spei wrote:
Neo_BCN wrote:
RMG wrote:
Neo_BCN wrote:
The real question is, how can someone be gay when there are so many beautiful women?


How can so many women be straight when there are so many beautiful women?


Because there are hott men like me.


Nah, it's because they know you're the best they can hope for.


You're still a virgin aren't you?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 3:32 pm 
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Marriage is the joining of two people who love each other together; it shows they love each other and are commited to each other and is basically regognised as such, so in my mind it should be no different with homosexuals.

As for homosexuals not being able to have children - adopt, ask someone else to get pregnant for you (sorry, forgot terminology) or be artificially inseminated.
As for homosexuals raising homosexual children - poppycock! Heterosexuals may end up with homosexual children, it can be the opposite way round with homosexuals. Ones sexuality is not deternined by upbringing alone (granted may be slight factor)

DH

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 3:53 pm 
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Ok, Neo. Enough trolling in Debate threads. Unless you have something valid to say towards the debate, please keep it out and to the other parts of the forums.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 4:09 pm 
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Cenwood wrote:
Neo_BCN: Because beautiful women dont do it for them. Or they can be attracted to beautiful men as well as women. I dont pretend to completely understand gayness, but I dont need to be gay to accept homosexuality.


Some times, a woman's touch is what one needs to be satisfied and happy. Sometimes it is the carresses of another man. Each is special and different. Noone else can or should be involved in this descision.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:18 am 
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That's not the question. It's if the people should have the right to redefine marridge, which has been recognized as a straight institution.

The issue lies in the redefinition. Conservatives cling to the past, but the truth is, it can't really be enforced by any country that declaires itself free.

Once, the blacks and Whits could not marry. Once, blacks couldn't even sit on the front of the bus. Once, Women couldn't vote.

In all these cases, it wasn't a matter of if the people lacked the choice. It was a matter of no one was willing to take it. In all cases, they eventually realized what oppertunities they had been deprived of, simply for not being straight white males.

And that's what's happening now. And frankly, I say all the power to the latest enforced minority fighting back.

-Kitty

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:11 am 
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In many cases its not an "enforced" minority but a volentary one, gay culture taking it far beyond black culture, I mean its one thing to say I am a human being and I have the right to be treated like one, another to say my sexual orientation makes me special, look I can dress in a skirt.

I like the stereotypes on both sides, gays are either all decadents or decent human beings, what about the part they play in their own segregation? Gay pride parades, the flagrent anti-strait culture in some gay communities, etc etc, all contribute to reinforcing the idea of the dominant group that these people are too mentally unstable to be given proper air time.

Oh, as to the whole issue, comparing gays to blacks or hispanics is rather insulting, I mean there's disapproval and there's actual prejudice, for the most part gays experience the former, the latter is reserved for the stuff of hate crimes and such.

Lets get it right here; this is not some historic OMG PPL R EQAL moment in history, it is the change of a historically heterosexual institution to include people that we for the most part disapprove of. Of course there will be a backlash - to put it in simple terms, if a court ordered you and your friends to let some asshole who's lifestyle you think is immoral or just stupid (lets say, lots of hard drugs, living off welfare, etc etc) into your "Non-Idiots" club, you'd be a little pissed right? Same thing here.

Of course, I don't mind constitutional equal-protection arguements, which are in fact legitimate. As to the slippery slope, there is actually a tenent that the courts have approved where you can ban "immoral/decadent" behavior; most Americans (and judges) don't consider homosexuality decadent on the order of beastiality, per se, but they do at the very least 'disapprove' of it. If homosexuality were that, you'd outlaw it and that would be that. People do not want to outlaw homosexuality, thus putting it on par with heterosexuality, or at least in the same ballpark, and subject to the same benefits and protections under the constitution.

So its all or nother, either convince teh voters to ban homosexuality like they've banned beastiality, or its a legitimate choice and you'll have equal-protection suits filed everywhere. As mentioned, Bush's constitutional ban on gay marriage has no chance whatsoever to pass, and given his opponent the lodge republicans won't be voting for Kerry anyway, so he can have his cake and eat it, too. Impress the Christian right, everyone else who doesn't approve has nowhere else to go.

-MiB

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