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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:55 pm 
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Shiny new essay at the top: same message, much better packaging. Not even Cen can claim to not understand the point of the essay now.

-MiB

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:51 pm 
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On a quick skim through, I didn't notice any statistics of how many of those below the poverty line are the "working poor" (i.e. those with a full-time job that apparently pays so poorly they are unable to fully support themselves and/or their dependents). Seeing as I've only heard statistics about that from what seemed like lefty sources (and the numbers seemed rather high), I'd like to hear what unbiased sources say.

Welfare seems like a half-assed attempt at socialism/communism, to me. If people aren't typically motivated by the warm-fuzzy feeling of knowing that they are helping someone with their taxes/work, then it seems that such a system (i.e. communistic socialism) isn't trying to deal with reality. Non-emergency state-sponsored medical care (especially of those who are most likely to die before contributing to society), social security and disability checks fall under the same umbrella of welfare, to me. If one is going to endorse or use a system based on self-interest and personal incentive, I see no major reason to be half-assed about it.

Ways to make someone a contributing member of society? Yes. Ways to let those unable to be one continue? No.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:22 pm 
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www.census.gov

If you're really interested, go have some fun.

-MiB

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 Post subject: Re: Arbiet Macht Frei: The Welfare Question
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 5:09 am 
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The Man In Black wrote:
The solution to this problem is twofold: first, abolish welfare entirely, from top to bottom scrapping the entire social experiment. Second, because some people actually do need a chance to get on their feet, establish a personal loan office of the government, which will grant a single low-interest loan to any person in financial hardship, with payments delayed for a reasonable period of time, adjusted for the state of the economy. These loans will be small (enough to live off of reasonably for a single year, at most,) and should be paid off in short order: 5 or 6 years seems reasonable. This debt should not be able to be erased by bankruptcy declarations, as it is special government aid. This way, rather than just handing out money to people, the government gives loans, making sure people can go to school for a year and live, or just look for work if they wish to, but most of all they require that it be paid back with interest. Thus the ideal of our society is upheld: value for value. As well, it forces those people who previously only wanted to live off of their handouts for their entire lives to make a decision: either become a productive member of society, or starve.



alright, you've made a start. an opinion with some numbers behind it... what's next? would the system be phased in? how long would it take to set up the infrastructure? What possible stumbling blocks do you forsee in implementing this plan, and how would you counter them? would it be tested at a smaller scale first? How much money would you need per annum to set up and fund the infrastructure, how much would cutting out welfare give you? advertising, how do you present your idea to the public? Is the loan the only service you provide? (will you provide an infrastructure fro training? apprenticeships? higher education?)

One system i recommend having a look at is the Australian Govornment's HECS system. It's a long-term student loan used to help students through university, and the student doesn't start having to pay it back until they earn over a certain threshold. It's designed to be a cut in education fees, and is paid back in the same way the money is collected to give to the student in the first place - Tax.

HECS link

so, you've got my interest. now i want to know how it WORKS.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:00 pm 
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Thats all teh implementation, first off sicne you've been able to abuse the aus welfare system I'm of the opinion that its out, any system so easily abused should be put out of consideration, unless you abused just the dole and not HEC?

Anyway, the point of this article wasn't specific implementation, that would be for wiser and more boring heads than mine, to be honest I wouldn't know what would work best, there are people who would, I'll delegate it to people with experience in welfare, so they can know what is abused, what is used, what isn't used, etc.

Since I'm not a goddamn mooch, I don't have any experience in welfare, that'd be #1 qualification, if I was hiring people I wouldn't accept myself to determine how all these things would go down.

-MiB

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:57 pm 
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okay, i didn't talk about personal experience, but you did.

Currently, i have been on most sides of the Welfare syste, apart from HECS which is a completely seperate loan. HECS in it's simplest form is a student loan from the govornment that means more smart people can go to university without having to e rich. HECS is by no means a free ride, however. Uni students still struggle to pay their way even with HECS paying for a portion or all of their fees.

LIFE STORY TIME.

My first experience with australaian welfare was when my dad stopped working as a farmer to go to university to become a social worker instead. Since my mother had flaked out nd vanishd, he was a single parent without the time to work trying to pay not only a portion of his tuition fees and the living expenses, but putting two kids through school. The govornment subsidised him a little for two kids, but not as much as he would have gotten were he to sit on the dole. Some weeks, there just logistically wasn't enough money, but were it not for HECS, there is no way he could have gone to university, gotten a degree, and walked into a comfortably paying govornment job. In the welfare system, i might add.

Now i'm not going to deney that i mooched and took it easy on the system for a while. As this adds to my perspective of the entire system. it wasn't hard to do, but if i had been anyone other than me, and was more driven to own possessions or be more social, i couldn't have done it. And still, there were times when money was tight. Then, from moocher, i went to student at a technical college. Students get paid less than those on the dole, and have more costs. Money got very tight.

Then, i got a job, and started paying taxes, like everyone else that gets a job. I have no resentment paying these taxes, as the money raised from taxes A) helped my dad get a higher education so he can work in $70,000 PA jobs instead of $30,00 PA jobs, B) gave me a chance to get my head together and try and figure out what i want, and C) used to fund the running of our country and keep it a reasonably safe place to live.

WOW THAT WAS BORING.

Thw welfare system is there as a saftey net for everyone who needs it. it may not be perfect or even the best, but it's helped me and those i know to live, and coupled with the HECS system, helped my dad better himself and contribute more back to the society which gave him a chance.

I harbour no bitterness in paying taxes, even if a small fraction of that is going to support shiftless losers like i used to be.

Your idea has merit, although it lacks compassion. and it would definitely only be a part of a larger plan and infrastructure. other projects to increse the education of poverty-class citizens and programs to create more jobs would be necesary. I, too, am too lazy to try and think up every detail for this, but i'm also reasonably comfortable wih the current system.

At the end of the day, you and i are in the same boat. We have opinions, and ideas, and seeing as neither of us is willing to work on the system to better it, it stays the same.

that said, it's time to look at some titties, and then go to work.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:23 pm 
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I got to "but you did," skipped to the last line, and agreed.

The point? I don't care. You did, if you're uncomfortable with you doing it, to the point where you feel the need to justify or explain it to me, I don't care either. I'm not even gonna say you're some OMG WTF IMMORAL person, thats a waste of time, you were just a drain on society for that period of time, teh final goal of the proposal is to eliminate the ability to do that, thus teh people who normally don't do jack can either do jack or starve, simple choice right? Perhaps you're just one of teh victims of welfare, teh ability to get all that free stuff with no work is rather tempting, not encouraging you to do your part in a capitalist society etc.

But I think I mentioned before, I don't really care about your life story, you did that, so I took you as a convient example of why the aus welfare system isn't really that good an idea to copy, if someone can bum on it for so many years than its not a functional thing, teh purpose as mentioned before is to help the chronically unemployed and those in a temporary state of poverty, its your own job to be responsible and move yourself on up from there, why again do you deserve my money for that? I thought we valued hard work here, not everyone carrying you over to your life goal.

-MiB

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:40 pm 
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well, we agree on one thing. you don't care on how i came to my conclusion, and i don't care how you came to yours, which makes debate hard.

don't use the Aus welfare system as a guide then, but check out HECS. it does, in some ways, reflect your idea, so i thought it might interest you.

Since you said you either don't intend to take your idea further, or are currently not qualified to, really don't need to have an opinion of it. I think it's interesting, but i'd need to know a lot more about it before i'd advocate it.

i had a rant about welfare money being spent back into the economy, but realized i don't have the knouse to argue it, and i'm running late for work.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 7:26 pm 
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The topic for debate is: Whether welfare should be dropped entirely and not used in a capitalistic society.

Not whether America's current method of administering benefits is flawed or unfair.

Not whether America's current welfare system acts as hammock instead of a safety net.

Not whether income taxes suck.

Im arguing against the abolishment of welfare, NOT the restructuring thereof. I disagree with MiB's dipshit "Damn those poor people leches" viewpoint, not with the view that the way in which the idea is currently being implemented could be improved.

Just like to clarify...some fairly smart people with middling views are starting to post, and I want to make it known where I stand on this.

Quote:
I got to "but you did," skipped to the last line, and agreed.


Its...thats... not how it works MiB, you see you actually need to read a post before you can comment on all its content, and....Oh, forget it. I see now why you didnt comment on my "What about these types of economically recognised unemployment that definite ARNT lechery".

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 9:01 pm 
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Cenwood, if you're going to make any attempt to have an intellectual debate, learn to fucking spell.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:25 pm 
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The Man In Black wrote:
I got to "but you did," skipped to the last line, and agreed.

The point? I don't care...


If this is truly how you feel, then what was your point in posting this here? You hardly seem the type to seek validation through an internet forum, so what other purpose could you have than desiring constructive critisism?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:02 am 
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The Baron wrote:
Cenwood, if you're going to make any attempt to have an intellectual debate, learn to fucking spell.


What the fuck is this shit? There are three other mispelled posts on this page alone. Are we all doing the selective enforcement crap here, or is spelling important for everyone or important for noone?

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 Post subject: =3. <3 to you, Cen.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:03 pm 
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<b>No one</b>.[/pedant]


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:16 pm 
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Cenwood wrote:
The Baron wrote:
Cenwood, if you're going to make any attempt to have an intellectual debate, learn to fucking spell.


What the fuck is this shit? There are three other mispelled posts on this page alone. Are we all doing the selective enforcement crap here, or is spelling important for everyone or important for noone?

Just you, simply because you seem to take yourself seriously and apparently never learned how to spell "leech." Oh, and "lechery?" So not a word, unless of course you're talking about, for example, orgies and such.

And Maddykins is exempt on the grounds that he is Maddykins.

Fuck, a English people which not can talk the decent English off piss me.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:50 pm 
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Okay Mad, here's the point: The welfare system is BROKEN and needs to be scrapped. The exact plan I can't put down except in general terms; what we need is real-world feedback, implementation and then monitering, so I can't magically pull a good solution out of my ass, only a general guideline, lets go in THIS direction etc., I suppose I could put a couple "workable" solutions down, but thats not teh point, teh point is that welfare is broken, and this is the direction I think we should take it.

Glad I was able to clear up this misunderstanding, probably from your brains rotting on teh welfare system, tsk tsk, another dysfunction of welfare, makes your brain shrink.

-MiB
If you couldn't tell that was a joke, I hope you get AIDS and die.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:27 am 
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At the end of the day, thoughts without actions equal little more than opinions.

Your opinion, as i interpret it, (and correct me if i interpret it wrong) is that as you said, the current welfare system is wrong. You state the reason for this being that it creates 'welfare cheats' that leech taxpayer dollars and undercut the capitalist social model. your opinion is based on your personal moral code, although i'm not saying it's an isolated view, and figures from the 2002 american census.

My opinion is that while this system may not be perfect, any harm it does, which is that taxes are slightly higher than they otherwise might be,* a lot of people who do not have work have somewhere to live and something to eat. Logistically, in my mind, this is a 'more good than harm' scenario.

You strongly believe the system need changing.

I don't think the system needs changing, but i'm not really all that passionate about it, and i'm open to suggestions.

Neither of us are really doing anything to change the system or keep the status quo.**

Result: nothing changes. You still strongly beleive what you believe for your reasons, and i still think welfare does more good than harm. Welfare isn't getting drastically changed, or scrapped in either of our countries.

The Man In Black wrote:

The point? I don't care. You did, if you're uncomfortable with you doing it, to the point where you feel the need to justify or explain it to me, I don't care either.


in clarification of this, i was using my experience with the welfare system on the varying sides of it as the reson for my opinion. It's not justification of my actions, it's to explain where i'm coming from. Sure, it's only anacedotal , and in no way hardcore evidence, but i' don't need hardcore evidence to have an opinion. Just to convince others that they should share it.

*(note: i too pay taxes.)

**(you wrote a paper, i said "interesting. got any more?")

also, the american census system only seems to go to 2002, while the Aus one goes to 2004. what up wid dat?

aus

USA

Edit: it's the cocaine that makes my brain shrink. Since i think with my penis, and i can now afford a hardcore drug addiction, the lil' feller's shrivelled up like a peanut.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:40 am 
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America runs a census once every 10 years. Takes 2 years to get done. our last one started in 2000. next will start in 2010.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:11 am 
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Just a FYI: actual work towrds the census begins 3 years before the actual year the cencus count begins. work on the 2000 census began in 1997, with pre-planning. 2 years out, initial feild work begins (Guess what I did for my summer jobs before I got out of college in 2000). The year of the census, actual counts begin. 2 years later is the deadline for the a last of the compiled and verified data to be released to the public.
During the other years, data is collected in sample surverys (this is the data released showing dates other than the actuall census year.
Data is undergoing continous analysis, and confirmation processes to insure legal acuarcy. Revisions of existing data are rather smooth and not of significant public announcement due to the statistical insignificance.
Not an arguement or anything, just a FYI 'cause I was once a Commerce Dept (parent agency of the Census Bureau) employee.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:44 am 
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The Baron wrote:
Oh, and "lechery?" So not a word, unless of course you're talking about, for example, orgies and such.


Lechery means a lecherous act. Normally used in a sexual context, but doesnt have to be. Leechery isnt a word, you see. And I dont give a fuck who or what is exempt from the YOU MUST SPELL rule. My posts are understandable by "Any English people which in can talk the decent English", and however I spell leech or lech makes no different to the point at hand.

MiB: Had you said, "the welfare system needs reform or change", I might agree with you. But you didnt. You claimed welfare is a bad idea and was always a bad idea, and that any welfare system is incompatible with a capitalistic society, and should therefore should be scrapped. You called it a "failed social experiment", not "a good idea that was implemented badly".

When I said "Yeah but what about these types of unemployment which definitely ARNT deliberately parasitic" you bitched and moaned something about a lack of figures, and refused to believe anything unless its first been backed up by a government study, and then stopped reading anyones posts but your own.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 5:25 pm 
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madadric wrote:
Blah blah blah opinion blah blah blah lack of facts blah blah blah people who don't want to work being able to live okay blah blah blah people able to have kids with impunity blah blah blah


Facts?

Logic?

Something?

I dunno, just "it does this, doesn't it? So its good" isn't good enough for me, if you don't give a shit please don't just "meh" about the thread, some data would be nice, etc, I mean we're dealing with reality here, I showed that welfare harms society in that it seems to heighten the problems it proports to solve, ie the underclass, I know you like to not pay attention but the purpose of welfare is to get rid of the underclass, not to make you personally feel nice about the fact that you're a loser (inspecific "you" here), its to get you OUT of that state of being a loser, my point was that welfare was a FAILURE at its goal, the data seems to correlate that etc., my suggestion was to scrap it and replace it with a loan-system, and let those who cannot actually get a job live off of family or charity - it is not the state's business to coddle you. Those who can work, will, those who can't, well why is there a "safety net" for those who can't? Let them be taken care of by a church or their family.

Er, but since you seemed to have wanted me to get more specific, fine, workable solution to getting those who can get work getting work, ie the underclass:

Institute a loan system, of just above the poverty line for the area, and delay payments for about a year or two. You may take this loan as many times in your lifetime as nessesary - as long as you pay off the previous one. Those who will not work, or are unable to get a cheap certification within a year or two will be left to their own devices; this debt is not to be dissolved with a bankruptcy. Interest will be exceedingly low. If you declare bankrupcy, your interest freezes and your debt remains the same (adjusted for inflation) every year.

Hand the problem of those who cannot work back to the original people who handled it, charities. They can still handle it, the problem was back in the great depression when they were overwhelmed, thus the dole etc.

Edit: And as a sidenote, I'm hoping to get this bumped around the sociological community a bit, though not as important as they were before WWII (having supported nationalism or communism will do that to a class of people) there are still some important ears they have, this is my real "action," etc, so you can stuff that down your goddamn penis mad.

-MiB

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