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 Post subject: Ninja vs. Pirates: The Ultimate Showdown
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:39 am 
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So, where does everyone stand on this issue? Which of the two is cooler? Who would win in a fight? These are, of course, two seperate questions, so I'll address them seperately.

Now, I generally think of nonconformity as cool, whereas conformity tends to be uncool. I would say that pirates are quite a bit less conformist than their ninja brethren. After all, as a ninja, one usually belongs to a clan, often with rigidly-defined rules. Also, all ninjas pretty much dress the same. BORING.

Pirates may be perhaps more social than ninjas, since a pirate ship requires more cooperation for success than a ninja clan, but sociality does not equal conformity. Pirate-ship government was generally communistic or perhaps anarchistic - the "captain" was more of a figurehead than anything else - a respected elder rather than a political leader, somewhat similar to the chiefs of most Native American tribes way back when.

Piracy is all about being an outlaw, so it's almost by definition against rigid, simple-minded conformity. Also, the pirate wardrobe reveals a much more intense creativity and more diverse aesthetic sense than the ninja one: one could wear a bandana of any color, a big pirate hat of practically any color, or both. Beards, no beards, five o'clock shadows, patch-eyes (or none), peg-legs (or none), etc.

Pirates are sociable without being "normal" and can work well with others without being mindless sheep, and this is pretty much the essence of coolness for me.

As for who would win in a fight: if it were one pirate against one ninja, I'm not sure. The pirate has gun-fu, a very powerful weapon as demonstrated by Indiana Jones. The ninja's distinct lack of muskets puts ver at a disadvantage, but admittedly ninjas are often much more resourceful than pirates in regard to these things. A ninja is specifically trained to kill others, whereas a pirate's main goal is simply to get booty. I'm leaning toward a ninja victory here, but I think the outcome really depends on how strong the pirate's gun-fu is. (Let's not forget, also, that pirates aren't too bad at hand-to-hand combat themselves.)

If we're talking about a large group of pirates against a large group of ninja, however, the pirates would win hands down. This is because, whereas the total competence of a group of pirates increases geometrically the more members the group has, the total competence of a group of ninjas decreases exponentially with increaed size. Based on my knowledge of movie and television cliches, I know that a single ninja is a formidable enemy, whereas several dozen ninjas are simply cannon fodder, easily dispatched by the hero. I'm guessing this may have something to do with the ninja's distinct lack of social skills.

In conclusion: PIRATES>NINJA


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:58 am 
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Been there done that. Ninjas won.

Thus the next movie should be, in accordance with popular demand, Ninjas of the Carribean.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:13 am 
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revolutio wrote:


That web page is so obviously biased that I'm not suprised at the poll results. Besides which, popularity does not equal coolness. Hell, in the case of things like music, it's often the exact opposite. Less people like pirates, therefore pirates are more indie and less sell-out, therefore they're cooler. QED.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:30 am 
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This is quite interesting and hard to determine actually. Given two sailing ships tied together as a battlefield, the ninja, as masters of stealth and quick, yet sure movement, would find tough competition against the pirates, who were virtually acrobats when it came to fighting in the rigging. Many ship to ship conflicts are won by who holds the advantage in the sails.
I would say that it's likely that the ninjas would win up top and therefore down below as well as those up above provide sniper style support with shurikens. Why would they win up above? Because they're sharpshooters with flying knives, use them to remove ropes which can be used by the pirates to send reinforcements up thus cutting off existing forces which can then be eliminated reasonably easily. The will also strike the pirates from the rear, having climbed along the hull of the ship to get behind the pirates. The only thing that may save the pirates is close quarters fighting belowdecks.
On land I would also have to side with the ninjas, what with being masters of stealth and all, they would use a feint strike again from the front or a side, (which will probably get decimated), and then they shall unleash their main strike into the pirates' unprotected rear, thus <strike>buttsexoring</strike> eliminating them with a rout.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:48 am 
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Personally I am biased towards pirates for alot of reasons.

-I like overcoats and tricorn hats

-I like flintlock pistols

-Parrots kick ass

-Pirates use sabers.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:27 am 
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Both pirates and ninjas rely on the element of surprise (pirates, well, sorta) and quick, devastating strikes meant to cripple the enemy and secure the objective (for ninjas, an assasination usually, for pirates, booty.)

So I think the fight hinges on who gets the element of surprise. If the ninjas are caught on the open seas with a pirate strike, then they fall by virtue of not being able to hide, and the pirates' longer-ranged weapons (light cannon) and their superior melee combat abilities.

If the ninjas are able to catch teh pirates by surprise, however, you get a series of lightning strikes that take the heart out of the pirates' forces from hidden positions, forcing the pirates to run about looking for them and falling into traps and the like that the ninjas have set.

So, advantage: death.

-MiB

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:53 am 
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This discussion arose while I was in San Angelo with The Electric Pope and Clay Allison while watching "The Brotherhood of the Wolf." The conclusion we came to shows that a ninja pirate, Mani being a prime example, is greater than either a pirate or ninja alone, but the ultimate fighter is a zombie ninja pirate, as shown at the end of the movie.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 12:13 pm 
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Wow. This is sort of an east vs. west type thing isn't it? Stereotypically European pirates vs. stereotypically Asian ninja. Which guerilla culture will win?


I'm going to say that the pirates win overall, because <a href="http://www.iccwbo.org/ccs/imb_piracy/weekly_piracy_report.asp">they still roam the seas</a>, while there doesn't exactly seem to be a huge ninja population world wide.

Also, if you think about it, it seems you can kill ninja with a single cut/blow to the neck/gunshot, but pirates are almost like zombies -- cut off a limb, gouge out an eye, and they'll just patch up some kind of prosthetic weapon and keep coming at you. Hook-hand, etc.

So in terms of the long run, pirates over ninja.


Also, I like the idea of chain shot.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 12:33 pm 
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they both lose, this guy woulda won

read it first....
















READ DAMN YOU





















read it? ok good





ONLY Herbal medicine and a Shot of Whisky after a snake bite? How hardcore can you GET? Snake Man>pirates>Ninja

In honesty, pirates> Ninja because Pirates are not HONORLESS PIG-DOGS. They respect chivalry, code of the Pirates, yada-yada-yada...Ninjas are farmers who found some Shuriken and hit Butters in the eye with one.

...that's not to say I would like to meet one in a dark alley...but...well...yea

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:54 pm 
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I would say that it depends on the venue. On the open seas, obviously Pirates. But, in a dark building or alley, it would be the Ninjas. It's all about location. On a dark sea or neutral field, I would say some sort of tie.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:49 pm 
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These are all good arguments, but you're ignoring the second part of my question, which is: which species is objectively cooler and why?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:23 pm 
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I feel that the greatest of all is a proper amalgamation of the two. The best example of which I feel is Tailsteak's "Shadow Man".

But beyond that, I say they are pretty even over all.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:08 pm 
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Depends. Stereotypical ninaj, or anime ninja.

Much love.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:51 pm 
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Ancient wrote:
Depends. Stereotypical ninaj, or anime ninja.

Much love.
How about real ninjas for a change. Seeing as they actually existed.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:48 pm 
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revolutio wrote:
How about real ninjas for a change. Seeing as they actually existed.

They were poor-ass bastards (had to steal weaponry from dead bodies), and didn't kill nearly as often as you'd want to believe. Glorified spies, really. They were hated muchly, often subjected to inventive tortures.

So, yeah, real life is suck.

However, we are obviously dealing with conceptual entities, not historical ones, so it's moot.

Ninja have the mystique, the enigma. What is behind that? No one knows, and that makes them cool. Sorta like what goths go for. In fact, ninja are exactly the epitome of what a goth wants to be: dressed in black, living in the night, killing others repeatedly with kick-ass funky weapons, occasionally meditating (angsting), and committing harikiri if things don't go well.

Anyways, by contrast, everyone knows the activities of pirates. Plundering booty, then spending that booty on plundering more booty. Whereas ninja maintain the purity of their body and mind by constant training (a rather stoic approach), pirates take the more Epicurean approach, and still manage to kick ass.

Ninja are goths that train really hard to be kick-ass. Pirates are guys that go all batshit crazy when they have to, then have a grog afterwards.

An old ninja kicking ass is much rarer than the batshit old pirate that holds a scimitar (Edit: Yes, anti-ollie, I meant scimitar. The pirates I was thinking of were, oddly enough, Turkish...don't ask) in his mouth with only two teeth and half a tongue.

If fully known, and explored, it becomes obvious that pirates > ninja.


Last edited by Abunai! on Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:06 pm 
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Call me crazy but I never thought ninjas were cool. They always seemed like a silly sort of joke to me.

The historical ones were sort of cool because they kicked ass with farm equipment.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:36 am 
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well i, anti-ollie, am about to watch Ninja The Protector (only a ninja can defeat a ninja) which i think will give us the answer to this little debate, one way or another

well, unless someone has a copy of Pirate The Protector (only a pirate can defeat a pirate) then it's a draw...

also, it's a cutlass damnit, not a scimitar... well, unless you've got Moorish/Turkish Pirates on the high seas...

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 9:39 am 
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the results of my in-depth research do not look good, thus:

the premise "only a ninja can defeat a ninja" seems false for a number of reasons, for a start all but one of the ninja killed/captured in this film are done so by another ninja, there is no one else in the fights at all so while the above is technically true, we have no examples of a ninja fighting a non-ninja

the one example of a ninja fighting, and indeed losing, to a non-ninja is the 2nd in command of the evil ninja gang, Albert. indeed his death while he tried to stab an undercover cop could give the pirate camp a lot of ammunition (pun intended) as he is shot by the cop's brother at the last second in a sub plot involving fashion modeling, lots of sex and blackmail

that example could, however, be claimed to be a fight between all non-ninja people, as all the 'real' ninja fights involved men in ninja suits using ninja weapons, some actually having the word 'ninja' written on them for, i dont' know, stealth or something. In the fight where the ninja was shot by a normal man no one was wearing ninja gear or using ninja weapons

to get dressed they used ninja magic (cloud of smoke) to get their ninja suit and weapons when confronted in the other fights of the film you see, both the bad (black ninja) and good (green cammo ninja) sides.

when not suited up the ninja were all very non-ninja like, merging into their jobs as gangsters, buisness men and fashion house owners very easily, all ninja activity (flying, running, stabbing, hiding, having a ninja conference) was conducted while dressed for the role, as such it could be claimed that a ninja's main weakness comes when they are not dressed for the part as they are so into their disguise as a normal person they leave their skills behind also

in conclusion the title should actually be Ninja The Protector (only a ninja can defeat a ninja when both parties are dressed properly, otherwise anyone can if you have a gun)

where this leaves us i'm unsure

on a side note, the best ninja are always white middle aged men with moustaches, in this case the cammo-ninja is British, instantly doubling all his ninja skills (knocking ninja stars out of the air with other ninja stars, having a bigger crossbow than any other ninja, ninja motorbike jousting, running a British/Hong Kong police task force of fat non-ninja etc)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:58 pm 
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Wow I found the topic.

Quote:
After all, as a ninja, one usually belongs to a clan, often with rigidly-defined rules.


Pirates have codes, duh. Otherwise they totally have to walk the plank. Ninjas don't deal with this silly plank business. If another ninja pisses one off, they go beserk and totally rip off the other ninja's head. I call that Real Ultimate Power.

Quote:
Also, all ninjas pretty much dress the same.


Yes they do. They don't have those fruity parrots on their shoulders, or those rip-offable big hoop earrings. Ninja clothes rock. I don't see pirates blending into masts and riggings like ninjas blend into darkness.

Quote:
I'm leaning toward a ninja victory here, but I think the outcome really depends on how strong the pirate's gun-fu is. (Let's not forget, also, that pirates aren't too bad at hand-to-hand combat themselves.)


Sorry to say, that a pirate defeat would be imminent, as a ninja would killzor the pirate before the pirate was aware a feisty ninja was in the vicinity.

Quote:
Ninja have the mystique, the enigma. What is behind that? No one knows, and that makes them cool. Sorta like what goths go for. In fact, ninja are exactly the epitome of what a goth wants to be: dressed in black, living in the night, killing others repeatedly with kick-ass funky weapons, occasionally meditating (angsting), and committing harikiri if things don't go well.


BOOYEAH. We are all goths after all ... so by default, NINJAS are teh winnar!!!! Everyone wants to be a ninja.

Quote:
to get dressed they used ninja magic


So where is the pirate magic? HUH? Talking parrots are not magic. They are meticulously trained, showing how the pirate's life is boring, sad, and horribly worthless.

Keep giving me material and keep losing. <3

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 2:57 am 
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johnny depp° == pirate

johnny depp > *

therefore :: johnny depp > ninjas

therefore :: pirates > ninjas


°hawt hawt hawt


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