ZOMBIE FORUMS

Grievre, ok, hun, darling, person I don't know.

What exactly is your point? Apart from all the stuff about us all being elitist bully boy fuck hats? I'm trying to see it and all I'm getting are a lot of mixed up arguments. I know you DON'T LIKE innitiations, but what might help me and a lot of other people to understand you, is if you tell us what it was about YOURS, specifically, that pissed you off so much?

You know, I don't know how I'm supposed to reply to that, because I'm sure anything I say will
end up in the thread being closed and me getting banned.

EDIT: This is a reply to baron's post.

Well first of all, I'm pretty sure I hated initiations before I even posted, just from reading.
Second of all, WHICH initiation? I've had three so far.

Hey, just because we don't like initiations doesn't mean we aren't part of the culture at all. Human cultures would never get anywhere if people didn't agitate for change from within them.

I've been part of this place for ages, I love this place (I wouldn't have my own forums here if I didnt'), I love a lot of the culture of this place, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to complain about the slight tinge of elitism that's taken root.

EDIT: Of course, I don't expect to actually change anything, since this thread is pretty much Grievre and me vs. The World-- trying to change the minds of the majority of the people here is like banging my head against a brick wall.

Because a lot of you are right when you say that initiations drive a lot of newbies who don't like or get them away.

And I think that's a damn shame.

Its not Grievre and you, RMG vs the world, its pretty much only you that has debated the con side. Grievre still needs to back up his points. And, Grievre, you are walking a thin line, but you aren't going to get banned for just saying anything. Just keep your act together and don't go on some tirade again. As long as this debate is kept here and kept as mild as it possibly can, you are fine.

I don't see anyone else being chastised for going on tirades (not talking about Shini).

Anyway, I'd like to clarify something. I never said I wanted anything resembling enforcement
of topic. I don't mind threads going off topic occasionally, or often, or even most of the time.

The annoying part about the ES forums is that in the majority of cases, a "n00b" cannot pose
a question, or give a point, because anything significant that it said is completely overshadowed
by the fact that it's a "n00b", the thread flies off into never-never land, and what it said is never
addressed to any significant length.

I think it's good that you agree, and I'm not trying to say that you and Grievre are bad people for disagreeing. Hell, if everyone started agreeing on the board, there wouldn't be a whole lot to discuss now would there?

I'm kinda seeing both sides of the argument here. Personally, I'd like to see initiations continue in order to weed out the truly idiotic posters that come here. But initiating someone because they accidentally hit the wrong button is just moronic. People make mistakes. Don't hold it against them.

Eh. I'm getting tired of this debate. And, despite the recent increase in initiations, I forsee that they'll slowly become more obsolete and reserved for those that truly deserve it in the future.

But then, who am I to say what'll happen?

[EDIT: Here, I have an idea. Grievre, why don't you through the recent ES threads and find the threads that have gone off topic because a n00b has posted a relevant question. There must be quite a few if it irks you so much.]

I'm tired of this frat-boy elitist shit. I'm leaving. Goodbye.

wark, surprisingly, this is turning out harder than I thought, I may have overgeneralized.

EDIT: Dumb question removed

Understandable. It seems, at least to me anyway, that intelligent n00bs don't seem to be initiated quite as often as idiot/irrelavent posters, although it DOES happen from time to time.

And Icy, does that mean you're gone-gone, or just "I'm ignoring this thread" gone? Course, if you're gone-gone, you probably won't answer this question...

I'm not going to have you banned if you actually reply. I'm sick of the trolling, the constant bullshit with no point that serves no point but making people angry. What Krylex said is pretty accurate. So far, you've stirred up a lot of drama that has no real point except to cause more drama. You've provided no solution, no suggestions, nada. Causing self-perpetuating drama is called trolling, hun. It's bad stuff, and I don't like it. More importantly, Quincy over here doesn't like it. And if Quincy doesn't like it, well, Quincy's going to do something about it.

So, either be constructive or shut the hell up. Mkay?

What sort of solution are you looking for, beyond "Stop the initiations, or at least tone 'em down?"

P.S. Icy.

hush, don't spoil his DOTE moment

as for my opinion, Inits are what you make them, that is to say G here seems to think they're about as important as it gets, this, to him, is an initiation forum with some random talking about comics where as just about everyone else sees them as five mins of fun and games inbetween the rest of the day's buisness. if you want to spend so much time and effort obsessing over it all then yes, it is bad and too much for (distracts Mr Dead and steals his underline) you, not automaticly everyone else.

there are many ways around this, as said, start up a LJ group thing, start up a bbs of you own a la Kyhms or just get in a huff and leave *ahem Icy *ahem*

me, i tend not to partake in or read all of the initiations as i'm not really into that scene, but i do agree that the place is largely troll/asshat free, prehaps not direct cause and effect, but i'd wager it has something to do with keeping a leash on the place somewhat, just look at how few ppl type with their elbows, how few threads are started up over and over again due to not even looking at the current top topics, nevermind the search facility etc, look how few people have had to be banned and threads locked, how many people have been here for months, years even and love the place, how many more webcomics have had forums here in the last 2 and a half years... surely that's a sign of a good forum?

really, if you can think of a better way of doing it for a better end effect, i'd wonder why it hasnt' already came around in the last aformentioned 2 an a half years of online social dynamics

Would you like for me to address his original points directly?

"1) The practice is childish"

Says you. I say it's done in jest and, although usually butchered to the point of just being stupid, can be extremely humorous. If someone takes the time to actually initiate someone, it's probably not done out of malice. Often, it's an attempt to make the subject of the initiation understand how things work on these boards.

2) It scares users away and/or alienates them

Point? Not all people should post here, just as not all people should post at any board.

3) It can be pretty creepy

Compared to what?

4) It distracts from the actual topic of conversation

It's a comic. How much conversation can you have about a comic that is updated with a few new panels every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday? If you believe that initiations divert attention away from the "proper discussion" of a comic, you're obviously looking for a board where Poe is an arrogant bastard who thinks the work he has created is somewhere along the lines of the Dune universe or Tolkien or something like that and everyone here takes things far too seriously. Not gonna happen.

5) It's elitist.

Hm? Not really. Don't be stupid, and you won't be initiated. Looking through your posts, it seems you have done nothing but cause trouble. Postwhoring when people were in an anti-postwhoring phase, starting an thread whose existence would obviously cause trouble (the "Is it just me" thread), and then you show up after an eight-month absence from posting with this post:



Perhaps elitism is necessary to maintain the cultural integrity and character of these forums if you are representative of the common people. If you haven't noticed, these forums are rather odd. This is not a bad thing. Initiations are an expression of this strange nature, as are various memes, Michael the Giraffe, the Lesbian Sex Nazi, and other such oddities. If you have a problem with it, see, I don't care. I don't think anyone else does, either. While an initiation should never be done in malice, it sometimes is. These initiations are foolish and should not exist, but that is merely my opinion. For initiations to cease entirely (or be toned down, as it were, because their over-the-top nature is what makes them initiations instead of common insults) would be to lose one of the fundamental reasons that this board is worth reading.

I might be stirring up "drama", but that's not my primary objective.

Anyway, here's some ideas for solutions:

1) Sticky some topics about posting rules - already mentioned this - and how to avoid inits
2) Tone the inits down a little, and don't let them monopolize conversation
3) Give people second chances, don't knee-jerk init them on their first mistake.

Also, as an aside, the word "initiation" doesn't quite fit, because it seems to imply that
*everyone* gets one.

EDIT: bbcode doesn't like spaces

Look. This is one of the better places on the net. I've been to other forums, looked around, and I keep coming back here, sometimes spending a day just in IRC and the boards. Things work here. We're realtively troll-free, we're diverse, it's a great place to post/relax after a long day. Why change what we have? The initiation process may not be what makes this place so great, but what if it is? Honestly Grievre, if you didn't like it here, why would you keep coming? And if this place wasn't the same as it is, would you come back?

I don't know why I am here... This is like some siren call, I am sure.

Anyway, to address a certain point: n00bs who ask a really silly question in a new thread get inits. N00bs who post a really logical, well thought out question and/or speculation get DNI'd or at least not inited immediately. Is it too hard to do a little research before posting "What happened to Ralph and Bimbo" type topics?

And I will admit that on the initial formation of CoI, I got carried away. I, and I think most the CoI members, have really toned now. Hell, right now we are nothing more than a bunch of people with hats, though we will still carry out an init when we see a need.

I would love to see some more colorful, original inits, but as I said earlier, comical rape et al is something that happens in forum and the n00b deserves to know that it is thought humorous by others. I mean, what, am I supposed to write this really nifty "welcoming post" and then at the end tac on "By the way, to some people here, shemales are hot, rape is funny, and we are sick"?

My Time Travel Init, written in the Style of HG Welles is an example if an original idea, it also included some forumers who joined in the fun!

Actor.

link?

Not really caring all that strongly one way or the other (i.e., if initiations continue to be frequent, graphic, etc. etc. etc. it won't really bother me all that much, but on the other hand I don't have a raging hard-on for them either), lemme just try to point out a couple things as non-objectivly as I can.



I don't quite get the single post thing, since an initiation kind of has to be a post (unless you do it by PM or e-mail or something), but that's just splitting hairs--really, Rae's right for most cases here. Every now and then someone who gets initiated will talk back and start flaming the people who initatied him, and of course they flame right back, and so on for quite a while, but these are the exception, not the rule. Arguing that initations are bad because they slow down the boards is pretty weak on its own.



On the one hand, it's certainly true that trying to place restrictions on what someone can and can't say is the road to hell. Censorship is never, ever the answer, and hopefully people on this board are smart enough to realize that saying what you want to when you want to means letting Nazis, or the KKK, or whoever else, say what they want to when they want to. On the other hand, there is a difference between target and non-targeted offensive material; i.e. someone spouting racist jargon is less likely to get the shit kicked out of him than someone who calls out "hey, fuck you nigger" to a black man. Since initiations are clearly targeted ("I fux0rs j00 in the ass with a switchblade"), it is pretty reasonable to assume that the person directly reciving the abuse is going to be a little more upset than if they'd found a post that said "I like fucking people in the ass with switchblades." Just because people can find humor in everything doesn't mean we have to force them to.



This is true, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that initations represent the average sense of humor on the boards. I find them tedious at best, and obviously enough other people don't think they're all that funny to keep this thread alive. Remember, the people regularly writing initiations are really a minority of the people on these boards.



Just want to break off here to point out that that is exactly what an internet message board is as well.



It's kind of difficult to accept that the people who enjoy hanging out here right now have the right to determine who hangs out here always. Anyone can come; it's whether or not they like it that's the issue. No matter how hard you try (short of the mods starting quality-control bannings), anyone who wants to post here can post here. So this is certainly not true of these forums, and I don't really see it as true of most communities, except for those gated communities in the suburbs. Bottom line, since initiations can't stop people from posting, just encourage them not to, the self-guarding community isn't a strong argument for initiations as a vital service to the boards.



The trouble with this argument is that, except for the people who write initiations (who, as I said, are not really the majority here), the community doesn't percieve the n00bs who get initiated as undesirable, or if they do, they don't see initiations as a way of dealing with it. I really do think it's a stretch claiming that initations are a sanctioned practice of the established community to keep trouble out, when in reality they're something that a decent number of folks do for kicks. (Just a note here, Rae, I know you say just below this that you don't personally initiate to keep undesirables out, but the argument floats around this thread a fair ammount already, and this is as good a place to address it as any)



This to me is a more convincing argument for initiations. I mean, I don't personally think telling someone about the horrible things I'm doing to them in my imagination is really an electronic equivilent for a handshake, but if you do then more power to you. Just make sure it's clear to the n00b (maybe at the beginnnings of the post, not the end) that this is your way of getting to know them, otherwise you risk their not perciving it as a friendly, welcoming gesture (and if your goal in writing an initiation really is to welcome them, that would defeat the purpose).



Again, this to me is a more convincing argument. Less of a quality control filter and more of a sugeon general's warning. Again, though, if this is really the reason for initiations, I think it could be better served by an addenum at the end along the lines of "Just to let you know, people around here will occasionally start talking about rape like it's funny, and if this post bothered you, you will not want to hang around." Don't know what the hell the CoP is, though.



This seems a bit much, really...there's nothing wrong with saying you don't like initations and you want them to change. Sure, Grievre's been a little aggressive taking that stance, but going reactionary and aggressivly refusing to listen to him (her?) because "That's not the way we've done it here" isn't going to make him see your side, or make him friendlier in his posts. The rest of this post was pretty much more of the same, so there you have it: everybody is talking here because everybody wants to advance their own personal view of how the forums should be. Grievre is hardly unique in that, it's just that right now the majority of voices heard on the issue are against him, so of course it seems like he's trying to force unwanted change. That's not being a control freak, that's being a supporter of a minority cause trying to drum up support, so no one really needs to get upset, whichever side they believe is right.



Really, that's only the case some of the time, and even if you do get warning, are you, as some poor n00b, going to ignore a response to one of your first posts, even if someone does start it out "Hey, man, this is going to be bloody."? So it's tough to see the irregular addition of warnings as any real argument for keeping initiations the way they are.



Now that's just being silly. Arguing against the majority does not place you anywhere near a ban-worthy offense, no matter how unconvincingly you do it. No one is walking any "thin lines" here with regards to getting banned.



This is, essentially, an argument against arguing. I percieve that as a bad thing for a debate-oriented forum. We all need to keep in mind that people defending their opinion are going to be, well, opinionated about it, and we especially need to remember that very little of this serves any point except to kill some time, generally enjoyably.

Okay, let me try to sum this excessivly long post up with summaries of points For Initations, Against Initations, and General Observations:

For Initations
1. "It's an expression of love, welcoming, etc." Okay, sez I. It strikes me as an odd how-de-do, but I'm not gonna say it can't work. But right now it's not always clear that this is the equivilent of a hearty slap on the back to the n00b reading, and a "by the way, this is all just a joke" at the end of a three-page gang-rape scene probably won't make that appart to said n00b, who we must remember is pretty clueless most of the time. In general, though, it's a decent argument for initiations.

2. "It keeps out people we don't like" Strikes me as an overly-aggressive form of quality control, especially since many people that get initiated and don't come backmay or may not actually be obnoxious trolls--we never really waited to find out. One stupid introduction thread does not an irreedemable sinner make. This is a pretty tough argument to sell; keeping out people you don't like by being really unpleasant to them is a tough ideological standpoint to buy in the first place, and there's a pretty significant downside to it. Probably not a winning argument for.

3. "It lets people know how sick these boards can get" This is fairly convincing, although most of the really sick things on the board--I say most, not all--do tend to be in initiations, so it's a bit cyclical at heart. The boards can get a little weird, and people should know that. Whether or not initating people is the way to do it, well, initations do get the job done, and I'm really not sure how else to do it. I mean, would you read the stickied "Disclaimer of Uncensored Content" thread? I'd say this one is a decent argument for.

Against Initiations
1. "They make people so upset they leave." While there is some truth to the argument that people who do this should be more thickskinned, initiations really aren't a great first impression. It's not a really spectactular display of the quality and enjoyment people will get if they stick around, so it probably does lose us people who really wouldn't be bad additions to the boards. First impressions are important, and initiations can be a bad one for any number of reasons (they're childish and dull; they're graphic and offensive, or any number of other, similar reactions). Pretty solid argument against.

2. "They're elitist." Yeah, but on the other hand, virtually every fun-loving group of people has some knee-jerk belief that the older, more experienced guys should be allowed to make fun of the new, green kids until they get a little weathering on 'em. It's elitist like Boy Scouts or a frat house is, at worst. This alone is a pretty bad reason to stop initiations.

3. "It's childish; It's mental masturbation; It's ego-inflation, etc." I totally agree, but again, I don't think that alone means people should stop. Dientology is a bad system to live by; just because your motives are self-serving doesn't mean what you are doing is inherently bad and needs to be stopped. Not a strong argument against.

4. "It distracts from topics" Most of the time, not true by more than a couple of posts, which isn't all that big of a distraction. It could be cut down on if, when some n00b reacts poorly to an initation post, someone just puts up a quick "look, it's just how [poster of initiation here] says hi, it's a forum tradition, you won't have to worry about it again unless you're really obnoxious, so even though we know you're pissed right now, please--just let it go" rather than chewing him out for not taking it like he's supposed to. Like I said, though, those are the exception, not the rule, so as an argument it's a bit of a wash.

General Observations
1. Play nice, children. Obviously we all have different opinions on how initiations should be handled. This thread has safely established that; now that that's over with, we can discuss it nicely. Agressive, "if you weren't such a self-centered jerk" posts are never going to convince someone of your side, so why try?

2. No one wants anything that is bad for the boards here, but we do have different visions of what a good board should be. Reach for compromise with other peoples' visions, not the establishment of yours. If any one person says "I don't care what everyone else says, I'm going to do it my way," then discussing things is rather moot.

3. This is a self-governed sort of community. We don't have laws (short of the stuff we all signed when we registered), we have generally accepted ways of doing things and generally unaccepted ways of doing things. If something's in the grey area, be it initations, bitching about initiations, or anything else, that is not carte blance to immediatly relegate it to the unaccepted side of the spectrum.

You are all bored of me by now, so peace out.