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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:04 pm 
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No they arn't.

Shut up.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:40 pm 
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Macs are just another kind of PC. A very expensive kind that limits you greatly when it comes to interchangability of hardware and software upgrades, but a PC nonetheless.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:30 pm 
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ptlis wrote:
Thinman wrote:
Consider this:
Honeynet.org wrote:
Between April and December 2000, seven default installations of Red Hat 6.2 servers were attacked within three days of connecting to the Internet. Based on this, we estimate the life expectancy of a default installation of Red Hat 6.2 server to be less then 72 hours. The last time we attempted to confirm this, the system was compromised in less than eight hours. The fastest time ever for a system to be compromised was 15 minutes. This means the system was scanned, probed, and exploited within 15 minutes of connecting to the Internet.

Now granted, security all around has been improving since 2000, but the point is that linuxes have a better security record in part because they <i>aren't</i> used by the unwashed masses of the internet. Some people still haven't gotten the idea that you don't have to know the particulars of how your computer works in order to use it safely. So they just give up and hope for the best.

See, this kind of anecdotal evidence proves nothing; there is no background information but I would assume that this server was setup on a single static IP address in which case the script kiddie who kept attacking the box probably made a note of it while scanning that range of addresses then kept coming back to it. If it had been a fair test then it would have to have been connected to the internet on several different ip addresses is several different ranges. All this proves is that the the same vulnerable setup connected on the same ip address of the last setup that was comprimised will be attacked again. No duh.

Actually eight IPs with between one and three active at once over the nine month period. <a href="http://www.honeynet.org/papers/stats/">The report</a> isn't too clear on this detail, as the focus is more on the blackhat traffic than the particular system vulnerabilities. I'm not sure what quality you think needs to be tested more fairly, but I was attempting to illustrate that Microsoft does not have a monopoly on crappy default settings.

I'm actually not sure what we're arguing about, except that I don't see that Microsoft has any particular responsibility to fix their broken-ass OS beyond the usual market pressure to provide a working product. I'm not even sure how much obligation they have to provide update patches. The last EULA I read (Win9x, I think) was a specific non-warranty.

SegFaulty wrote:
Macs are just another kind of PC.

Quote:
Never argue with a pedant over nomenclature. It wastes your time and annoys the pedant.



Hee hee, Silly apathists and their funny little one-button mice ...

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 5:35 pm 
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Thinman wrote:
SegFaulty wrote:
Macs are just another kind of PC.

Quote:
Never argue with a pedant over nomenclature. It wastes your time and annoys the pedant.



Hee hee, Silly apathists and their funny little one-button mice ...

Furthermore, in response to your question regarding this on the previous page:
ptlis, on the previous page wrote:
I think by PC most people think of x86 architecture; IBM originally coined the phrase personal computer and developed the x86 architecture specification so from a technical and historical POV this is true. It is only if you take the literal meaning of the words that a personal computer becomes a computer, regardless of underlying architecture, which is only intended for a handfull of people to use.


ptlis
I have had too much alcahol to continue the debate tonight and keep it coherent...

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:02 am 
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ptlis wrote:
Thinman wrote:
SegFaulty wrote:
Macs are just another kind of PC.

Quote:
Never argue with a pedant over nomenclature. It wastes your time and annoys the pedant.



Hee hee, Silly apathists and their funny little one-button mice ...

Furthermore, in response to your question regarding this on the previous page:
ptlis, on the previous page wrote:
I think by PC most people think of x86 architecture; IBM originally coined the phrase personal computer and developed the x86 architecture specification so from a technical and historical POV this is true. It is only if you take the literal meaning of the words that a personal computer becomes a computer, regardless of underlying architecture, which is only intended for a handfull of people to use.


ptlis
I have had too much alcahol to continue the debate tonight and keep it coherent...


I stand corrected.

In that case, macs are expensive plastic boxes, running an architecture with lousy pipeline optimization, good for little besides running adobe products and keeping the fan from blowing papers off your desk :P

[edit]

Oh, and their monitors still do a wonderful job of reporducing color images, so I suppose they would be superior to many "PC"s in the porn-browsing department.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 10:22 pm 
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There's a Mac vs. PC thread and nobody told me?

Let's get a few things in the INITIAL POST straightened out.

1. Macs are a fuckload more expensive. This is because of the fundamental problem of the Mac--it is a closed-box system. More on that later.

2. Macs are not customizable, not because of the limited market share, but because Apple likes it that way. They sell all the hardware, so they can charge obscene amounts and prevent any other hardware from working by blocking it at the firmware level, as they routinely do. (Try running OS9 on a later G4.)

3. Processor speed is insignificant. IPC is all that matters. Toss-up here.

4. OSX is better than Windows with regards to stability. BSD core, of course it's better.

5. Macs have one giant problem that they will not overcome. They have no DirectX. Say what you will about OGL. It's a fine language, no problems with it EXCEPT the ARB. The ARB is a huge problem. They take forever to ratify changes (GLSL STILL isn't a GL extension, it's an ARB one), so you can get features (such as floating-point pixel shaders) on Windows two years before you can on a Mac. Macs need to attract gamers, and this is a big part of what's stopping them.

6. FSB speed--uh, guess what, Athlon64s are hitting 800Mhz or 1000Mhz FSB (they call it HyperTransport, same difference). And, that's with an integrated memory controller--them things is zippy.

7. Bah. You've never seen workstation level displays, then. QUXGA, anyone? Mind-blowing.

What Apple did do was make the worst OS in history for years and threw it out. I have to give them props for that. Security-wise, though, it's as big of a mess as Microsoft. They denied the existence of two gaping security holes that allowed a web site to execute arbitrary code. That's insane.

Kuh, Prescott does not, to my knowledge, support NX. Think that is coming in Nocoma/chips descended from Nocoma.

The reason Linux is by default far more vulnerable than Windows is because Linux runs every fucking server known to man. If there's a buffer overflow vulnerability in one of them, well, somebody can break in. For a desktop machine, though, you shouldn't be running inetd, ftpd, bind, etc. (okay, this is kind of silly. just think of all the Windows exploits that are not patched unless you have a slipstreamed install.)

I could go on, but why? There is no compelling reason to use a Mac at this point in time. It is neither economically nor technically sound. It is, however, aesthetically sound, which is a really shitty reason.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:13 am 
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Long live the Unix OS, down with windows!!!!

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:30 pm 
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hah, I CAN run windows on my Mac!

...what's that? not the same? It seems EXACTLY the same to me...

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:36 pm 
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Huuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Is it time for BDM's ration of daily attention already?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:02 pm 
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BDM05 wrote:
hah, I CAN run windows on my Mac!

...what's that? not the same? It seems EXACTLY the same to me...


BDM shush. You are generally agreeable, but shush.

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