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 Post subject: Weapons Debate #Infinity Minus Twelve (give or take): Gyrojets
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:19 am 
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Okay, let's talk about gyrojets. For those who aren't in the know, gyrojets were tiny rockets, usually 12 or 13mm (.50 to .51 cal) that could be fired from special pistols and carbines instead of bullets. They were produced for use in Vietnam, but that fell through and nobody has really done anything else with them since. You can still find gyrojet pistols and carbines for sale, but they're pretty rare and ammunition is even harder to find. Though you'd think ammo would be pretty easy to get hold of since nobody used it and they cranked out millions of cases of the stuff.

Anyway, the goal of this particular debate is this: can the gyrojet became a valid weapon in the modern world, what sort of applications would it have, and just how cool is it to have a fricking rocket launcher that fits in your pocket?


Pros of gyrojet weapons (Vietnam-era technology):

Lightweight. The guns were made of cast aluminum, zinc, or some other metal, I forget what. The only parts that weren't made out of that material were the screws, springs, and such. In any case, they were much lighter than most handguns of the time, weighing about 22 ounces. Compare to this to metalframe and synthetic handguns of today and see if they're still favorable.

Low maintenance. The guns had nearly no moving parts, making them much simpler to keep in working order. They were designed to pass out to Vietnamese farmers to fend off the VC, and you know they weren't on the same level of gun competence as the guy field-stripping an M16 while blindfolded and hanging upside down.

Low cost. It doesn't cost much to make those things. Heck, the same amount of metal and craftsmanship is found in many action figures from the 80's for pete's sake.

Noise reduction. A typical firearm makes a shitload of noise when it goes off, am I right? Now grab a can of beer out of the fridge, shake it up, and open it. That's what the gyrojet sounds like when it fires. Which one are you going to want in a situation where surprise is required?

Firepower. At 100 yards, the 12mm gyrojet has 50% more firepower than a bullet fired from a .45 pistol.

Nearly no recoil whatsoever. Because the projectile contains the propulsion and not the weapon itself, less recoil is passed on to the hand of the person firing. Instead of rifling grooves, the barrel of the pistol/carbine has positioned exhaust ports that not only give the projectile its spin and greater velocity, but bleed off most of the kick it would. Excellent in any situation, especially where accuracy is required for the second shot or any following.


Cons of the gyrojet (Vietnam era)

Low ammo capacity. The pistol held only six gyrojets in the magazine at the time. I'm sure that this can be addressed with a larger capacity magazine, but another question is whether or not you would really NEED that many shots from one of these, given the type of situations where one would be used.

Fouling of exhaust ports. Any of the holes along the barrel of the gun could get dirt or grease in it, clogging the hole. This means that the spin and velocity of the projectile are affected, which may result in the gyrojet going anywhere BUT where you aim it.

Low initial velocity. At close range, the gyrojet is still building up speed and doesn't have nearly the firepower it does at longer ranges. This is a weapon that is best at long-range, so would a pistol version even be practical? Could modern technology accelerate the round faster, making it a more effective weapon at any range?

Exhaust contrail. The gyrojets of Vietnam left a tiny trail of smoke behind them that rapidly dissipated, but could concievably point right to the position of whoever fired the gun. Will this continue to be a problem, or can modern materials beat it?

Ammo and moisture = bad thing. In humid weather or after submersion in water, there were isolated incidents of gyrojet ammunition either having sub-optimal performance or simply not working at all. Occurences of ammunition damaged by moisture were rare, but could be a potential problem, much as caseless ammunition is experiencing a similar difficulty.

Every round's a tracer. Rockets tend to have a nice flame right behind them as they go off. This will be difficult to see, even from behind where you have a clear view of it, because of the projectiles size and speed, but it could concievably reveal the position of the weapon operator in low-light conditions. Little information on this was found.




So, there you go. Have at it boys and girls.

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 Post subject: Re: Weapons Debate #Infinity Minus Twelve (give or take): Gyrojets
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:37 am 
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ok then, I've heard of these and know a little about them as they basicly operate along the same lines as larger recoiless weapons, really i wrote them off as an oddity and thought no more. but i'll address some of your points then give my summary...

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Though you'd think ammo would be pretty easy to get hold of since nobody used it and they cranked out millions of cases of the stuff.


Quote:
Ammo and moisture = bad thing. In humid weather or after submersion in water, there were isolated incidents of gyrojet ammunition either having sub-optimal performance or simply not working at all. Occurences of ammunition damaged by moisture were rare, but could be a potential problem, much as caseless ammunition is experiencing a similar difficulty.


ammo has a very limited shelf life, especially government owned ammo and it's regularly dumped/recycled. so stuff from 30+ years ago is most likely well past it's sell by date if it's available at all, and short run production of it would be haphazard at best, especially with the various gun/explosives (it's a rocket) laws in the US. Caseless ammo (for the German G11 etc) is actually better in general than cased ammo for all of these by the way.

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In any case, they were much lighter than most handguns of the time, weighing about 22 ounces. Compare to this to metalframe and synthetic handguns of today and see if they're still favorable.


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The pistol held only six gyrojets in the magazine at the time. I'm sure that this can be addressed with a larger capacity magazine,


ok, using your numbers and mine:

Colt 1911: 7 .45 ACP rounds weighing in at 1.105kg
Beretta M92: 15 9mm para rounds weighing in at .850kg
Glock 17: 17 9mm para rounds weighing in at 0.620kg

The generic Gyrojet: 6 rocket rounds weighing in at 0.625kg (approx)

thus the gyrojet is slightly heavier than the Glock 17, and even the clunky old 1911 is less than twice it's weight, all, even the 1911, have a higher ammo capacity, up to more than 2 times

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Low maintenance. The guns had nearly no moving parts, making them much simpler to keep in working order.

VS
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Fouling of exhaust ports. Any of the holes along the barrel of the gun could get dirt or grease in it, clogging the hole. This means that the spin and velocity of the projectile are affected, which may result in the gyrojet going anywhere BUT where you aim it.


kind of a contradiction there, this is what screwed up the initial deployment of the M16, it was claimed to be almost maintance free so naturally the soldiers didnt' maintain it, and it failed critically in combat because of that. it's not the 'moving parts' that get messed up, it's the parts that get fouled by the environmet and the propellant of the round being fired. also if your'e issuing these to untrained idiots you'll end up with an unworking weapon very fast.

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Noise reduction. A typical firearm makes a shitload of noise when it goes off, am I right?

VS
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Exhaust contrail. The gyrojets of Vietnam left a tiny trail of smoke behind them that rapidly dissipated

VS
[qupte]Every round's a tracer. Rockets tend to have a nice flame right behind them as they go off[/quote]

again, self defeating as it is, and why build a weird rocket gun when you can have a silencer screwed on to your gun? Tracers are only really of use in machine guns, otherwise thery're more trouble than they're worth, but you shouldn't have a 'flame' at the back of it as rockets usually use up their propellent within the barrel and coast all the way to their targets. thats' why RPG gunners don't have their faces set on fire when they fire one off etc. Smoke is also less of trouble in the same way, tho the location of the firer is easily given away by the backblast throwing up debris around the barrel, more depending on how powerful the round/rocket is

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Firepower. At 100 yards, the 12mm gyrojet has 50% more firepower than a bullet fired from a .45 pistol.

VS
Quote:
Low initial velocity. At close range, the gyrojet is still building up speed and doesn't have nearly the firepower it does at longer ranges.


again, depends on the type of rocket burn, if it's all expelled in the weapon (usual) then it leaves the barrel at it's top speed and slows with air resistance, like a 'normal' bullet. As for 'firepower' thats' a hard one to calculate, depending on the speed and type of projectile, it's ballistic properties and composition etc, sometimes a smaller, slower bullet is more terminally effective than a larger faster bullet, some more facts and figures (and drawings) would help here

Quote:
Nearly no recoil whatsoever. Because the projectile contains the propulsion and not the weapon itself, less recoil is passed on to the hand of the person firing. Instead of rifling grooves, the barrel of the pistol/carbine has positioned exhaust ports that not only give the projectile its spin and greater velocity, but bleed off most of the kick it would. Excellent in any situation, especially where accuracy is required for the second shot or any following.


there is always recoil, especially for a larger round, 12-13mm etc. however much is 'bled off' there will still be quite a bit of a recoil, and as regards accuracy, well, you need good materials and training to fire accuratly with anything

Right, my bit:

this 'gun' is fatally flawed in a number of places

1. it's new: armed forces don't like new and unproven weapon systems, especially those that don't use established ammo, manufacture or training in any way whatsoever, kind of like getting a Lion tamer to tame a shark, sure it's the same sort of thing, but the specifics/ sheesh...

2. Maintance of 'gun' and ammo: if the material is crap, it will fall apart and/or corrode with a short amount of use and age. Also if it is meant to be issued to a poorly trained force these problems will be compounded. Also any type of chemical fired projectile will leave some chemical residue in the weapon that needs to be cleared, especially a recoilless gun

3. Actual combat effects: possable problems with low velocity (nothing is as fast, in general, size for size as a bullet) and issues with smoke/backblast that tend to give away the position of recoilless weapons.

All of these points have to be balanced against the terminal effects of the round it fires, ie if it's actually any good. Most recoiless weapons are now phased out of frontline service in favour of normal weapons and cannons (all at 75mm+ calibers usually) Also when the current technology is as good or better it's really not too likely anythign will be mad eof it, i mean you can have a silenced Glock 17 with over 2 times the ammo and a proven reliability and ammunition manufacture/use behind it. And if your'e planning to issue these to a bunch of untrained idiots anyway, why develop hi-tech stuff then a good old pistol is far better today then the gyrojet might be tommorow? In an ambush situation you want as much noise as posable, in a sniper situation you don't, snipers are highly trained, ambushers just need to be told what to do on the spot (it helps if they are trained tho)

in summary, it's a novelty, a recoiless weapon taken to it's logical smaller end, i feel that it's worth lookign at, but not worth abandoning all conventional weapons for. Also the various international weapons laws need to be looked at before you start firing rocket sat people

anyone else?

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 Post subject: Re: Weapons Debate #Infinity Minus Twelve (give or take): Gyrojets
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:16 pm 
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Insane_Megalamaniac wrote:
They were designed to pass out to Vietnamese farmers to fend off the VC...


Uh, maybe the more conservative boardies will bite me for intimating that the standard Vietnamese farmer didn't like us, but doesn't that seem like a really, really bad idea in a war where soldiers ended up shooting everything that moved because they couldn't tell sides?

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 Post subject: Re: Weapons Debate #Infinity Minus Twelve (give or take): Gyrojets
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:31 pm 
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Lucis Spei wrote:
Uh, maybe the more conservative boardies will bite me for intimating that the standard Vietnamese farmer didn't like us, but doesn't that seem like a really, really bad idea in a war where soldiers ended up shooting everything that moved because they couldn't tell sides?


you don't just hand guns out at random, that is a really, really bad idea, you issue them to specific groups of trained militas, village defence units and the like under the supervision of Allied forces. The Laotian irregulars were commonly armed with old M3A1 'greaseguns' as they were great in close ranged (jungle) combat and smaller than full sized rifles, great for the smaller stature locals, and very conventional so that military advisors didnt' have to learn, then teach them weird stuff about how to use the things

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 Post subject: MBA Gyrojet Pistol
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:49 am 
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Robert Mainhart and Art Biehl's gyrojet pistol was an utter failure, but an interesting piece of equipment none the less. The gyrojet projectile ( the first true pocket rocket) had a primer where you would expect it to be, but the hammer was in front of the projectile. When fired the hammer forced the projectile to the rear of the pistol where it was ignited by a fixed pin in the breach. The projectile recocked the hammer on the way out of the barrel. Its an interesting system.

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Quote:
Nearly no recoil whatsoever. Because the projectile contains the propulsion and not the weapon itself, less recoil is passed on to the hand of the person firing. Instead of rifling grooves, the barrel of the pistol/carbine has positioned exhaust ports that not only give the projectile its spin and greater velocity, but bleed off most of the kick it would. Excellent in any situation, especially where accuracy is required for the second shot or any following.


Quote:
there is always recoil, especially for a larger round, 12-13mm etc. however much is 'bled off' there will still be quite a bit of a recoil, and as regards accuracy, well, you need good materials and training to fire accurately with anything


The gyrojet was considered recoilless. A 45 ACP makes it to around 900 fps out of a 5 inch barrel. The gyrojet's 13mm projectile made around 200 fps out of the barrel and continued to accelerate to about 900 fps. A 13mm projectile filled mainly with propellent (not very heavy) at 200
fps ( not to mention the barrel porting) wouldn't result in very much recoil. I understand that recoil was pretty much nonexistent.

Accuracy for the gyrojet was horrible. A person doesn't shoot groups with it so much as calculate a circular probability of error. Rather like a tiny SCUD missile. (And about as useful) Ollie said you need training to fire accurately with anything. I agree, but I contend that no amount of
training could make the gyrojet even usable...

The gyrojet was a cool idea but I would rather see it developed for vehicle mounted weaponry than for a handgun...

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 Post subject: Re: MBA Gyrojet Pistol
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:06 am 
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Sear wrote:
The gyrojet was a cool idea but I would rather see it developed for vehicle mounted weaponry than for a handgun...


we have already had Recoilless Rifles for decades, I'll add a few pictures from my collection here just so everyone knows what I'm talking about, i.e. 'launchers' not firearms (despite the 'rifle' bit)

note the size of weapon needed to fire an effective shell when shoulder launched (3.45" British version)
Image
note the huge backblast of a gun carriage mounted 120mm WOMBAT
Image
note the vehicle mounting and size of ammo/crew needed on the 106mm (105mm) version
Image

anyway, this isn't a thread about existing/old recoilless rifles, so I'll end here, noting that with such a well established set of RR in the world's armouries, it's odd that this gyrorocket idea wasn't taken up in modified weapons if it showed any promise what so ever, it wasn't so I can only conclude it was an outright, unsalvagble failure. [/harsh]

next topic?

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Last edited by ollie on Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:18 am 
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2 of your pictures do not work

1st and 3rd one.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:36 pm 
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problem image hosting end, all sorted as of 7 mins after your post

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:04 pm 
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What I heard on the History CHannel was that it was never even considered for Military use.

As was pointed out, the M3A1 Grease Gun cost about 8 bucks to build and was regularly given to supporting "irregulars"

If the damed thing could accellerate to full speed inside the weapon instead of having inconsistent burn then flying off in a random direction (which it often did), then it might be interesting. In general, I see no use for it, it offers no real improvement over existing weapons and is a far worse idea than caseless ammo.

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 Post subject: I agree
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:33 pm 
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I agree with Sear on this one guys, he knows his stuff :o

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:57 am 
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The Gyrojet, despite being an interesting idea was a bit of a failure from the start.

The main reason was despite it's innovative launching system the job of the Gyrojet could be done by a standard pistol which require no extra training, not to mention the massive amounts of ammunition and parts already in storage for the pistols of the day.

I could see if they found a way to give the Gyrojet some amazing advantage (like the ability to steer itself or somesuch amazing ability) over a conventional pistol the military may consider adopting one of them someday but as of now they have no real advantages over the vast assortment of conventional firearms.

But off topic, the fact the G11 and the CAWS never went into service kind of boggles the mind, both of them were pretty impressive guns (the G11 especially) yet neither ever saw the light. Hell a G11 with 130 rounds in the clip weighed less than a unloaded M1 Garand and the darn thing fired caseless rounds, the CAWS was a multiple firemode shotgun with a twelve round clip and both seemed to work quite well but never made it past prototypes and test models, man bureacracy is retarded.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:41 pm 
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Gerbera345 wrote:
But off topic, the fact the G11 and the CAWS never went into service kind of boggles the mind, both of them were pretty impressive guns (the G11 especially) yet neither ever saw the light. Hell a G11 with 130 rounds in the clip weighed less than a unloaded M1 Garand and the darn thing fired caseless rounds, the CAWS was a multiple firemode shotgun with a twelve round clip and both seemed to work quite well but never made it past prototypes and test models, man bureacracy is retarded.


the Berlin Wall Falling = huge rise in the numbers of soldiers in the now reunified German Army, that + the lack of an immediate enemy = too much cost and trouble to equip everyone with a shiny new G11

CAWS? it's a shotgun, go hunt some ducks.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:28 pm 
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Hold on, lemme paint a duck on your ass first, Ollie. Shotguns have their place in combat, though primarily as secondary weapons in my opinion. The Jackhammer would be an awesome shotgun if they ever put it into production.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:22 pm 
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shotguns are more a tool in a combat situation than a weapon, this is a weapons debate thread...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 11:08 pm 
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Until they develope a smartlink, gyrojets will just plain suck in practical application. (Go Shadowrun, woo!)

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