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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:52 pm 
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<3 anyway

-MiB

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:21 am 
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RMG wrote:
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College and Canada will not be options. In December 2001, Canada and the U.S. signed a "smart border declaration," which could be used to keep would-be draft dodgers in.


Fuck!!


It's ok, RMG, I'll adopt you.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:54 am 
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The Baron wrote:
Wooh! I can't be drafted!

Woo! Same here, pal! *thumbs up, victory dance*


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 Post subject: who really cares????
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:02 am 
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Who really cares if the draft is reinstated? It is not like the war in Iraq is nearly as bad as the Vietnam war... besides I believe in mandatory military service for citizens....

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:08 am 
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The Title of the Forum wrote:
DEBATE Club


So yeah, what are your reasons for 'believing' in mandatory national service?

-MiB

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 Post subject: A repeat of 1991
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 3:03 pm 
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The same crap came about in 1991 due to the 1st gulf war.
Overall it cannot work due to mandatory troop strenght limits already imposed by congress. To institute the draft would have only 3 or 4 percent of eligibles being selected for service. Just think of the lawsuits that would result from this 'very selective' selective service system.

By the way:
From Snopes:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/draft.asp

Old timers like myself would be called into defense jobs to provide training for troops, and present cadre would be sent to man field units long before a draft occurred.
Yes, it would be like that, it is in a recent letter from DoD, explaining possible job offerings if active duty staffing requirements were to be streched out. (you get these letters if you are a DoD employee, and have training and experience they need to use)
It would mean lots of per diem and housing allowance (moving expense if I permanently relocate) and a bunch of 'cruits' calling me Sir.
What for that to happen before any draft could take place.

PS: It would be for the technical training in my case, and basic training would still be conducted by active duty staff, likely called up reservists.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 3:09 pm 
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Well thank you all for calming my fears a little.

...I'm still gonna keep an eye on it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 3:18 pm 
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BDM05 wrote:
Well thank you all for calming my fears a little.

...I'm still gonna keep an eye on it.


I would just love to see your ass try and get through basic.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 3:27 pm 
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Forevergrey wrote:
I would just love to see your ass try and get through basic.


see above haw many Kyhmers are actually physically clased as unfit for service, real low end of the gene pool we're splashing around in eh?

oh, and i remember a joke letter (this is before e-mails) that was moving around in the last Gulf War, an 'official' Army letter informing [insert name here] that he was being called up by the Army and to report to the nearest recruiting station

noone seemed to notice how many times it had been photocopied and the name tippexed out and re-written, they kind of expected the government to be that low budget really...

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 3:49 pm 
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Forevergrey wrote:
BDM05 wrote:
Well thank you all for calming my fears a little.

...I'm still gonna keep an eye on it.


I would just love to see your ass try and get through basic.


Actually the physical requirements for basic (at least entering it) are extremely low, from that you're built up by the gentle, caring, politically correct Training Officers (not drill sgts anymore, PC name etc.)

No but really, they are low, I think like 25 situps within 1 minute, running a mile within 8 minutes, etc. Unless you're absurdly out of shape (I could run a mile in 8 minutes after about 3 months of sitting around and not exercising,) you should be able to get through it, given the will. (or being forced. Conscripts and all.)

Edit: Holy shit, the army is full of geeks.

<RupertTheAirborneRat> to get in, you have to pass the physical at MEPS, and I think they're requiring 13 push-ups, 15 sit-ups, and a mile in like 8 minutes or something, which is all cake
<RupertTheAirborneRat> to graduate, you have to do minimum 42 push ups, 53 sit ups, 2 mile in 15:54 or less

I can do all but the last one with ease, 2 mile in 15:54 is pushing it but I think I can do it right now. Without any training whatsoever.

-MiB

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:16 pm 
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50 pressups in 2 mins, 50 situps in 2 mins and 1.5 miles in 10 mins 30

British Army basic fitness level, you are expected to be better than that tho, especially combat arms and officers, ie last run i did i hit 1.5miles in 9min 30, with a busted knee mind, pick up the pace again when it's a little better and really a min or two off that shouldnt be too much trouble at all

to get in as a recruit tho, yeah, relitivly lower than that and they work you up to it in stages, officer recruit tho you have to be up to standard from day one, we are NOT a conscript army by any stretch of the imagination

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:36 pm 
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I'm legally blind and damn near legally deaf. Screw the draft.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:53 pm 
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I might go into the mil as an officer anyhow, any possibility of a draft fails to bother me.

As ollie knows, I did come up with a plan for an extra military branch for conscripts, losers, and those avoiding prosecution to do shit work overseas. Thus leaving real troops for important work.

In my opinion the average soldier is overtrained and overqualified for shit-work.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:14 am 
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The Man In Black wrote:
Actually the physical requirements for basic (at least entering it) are extremely low, from that you're built up by the gentle, caring, politically correct Training Officers (not drill sgts anymore, PC name etc.)
<RupertTheAirborneRat> to get in, you have to pass the physical at MEPS, and I think they're requiring 13 push-ups, 15 sit-ups, and a mile in like 8 minutes or something, which is all cake
<RupertTheAirborneRat> to graduate, you have to do minimum 42 push ups, 53 sit ups, 2 mile in 15:54 or less


Politically correct? Ha. . ha ha, *bursts out laughing hysterically* To quote my Drill Sgt, "We're not supposed to swear at you anymore because it's offensive. But I don't really give a fuck."
Physical requirements aside, it's really mental toughness that counts. Most of my platoon had PT scores of 260 by the end of basic. 180 being what you get if you get all the minimums, 300 being the max.
You also have to qualify with the M16, complete all the training, etc. We had maybe four or five guys get kicked out for complete lack of motivation in my basic company, and maybe 10 medical cases(seziures, weak bones, etc). We also had a few go on profiles and get recycled to other companies. Supposedly there's a push now to make basic harder for everyone, due to the Jessica Lynch thing. But yes, from what I've read, draftee Armies require lowering of standards. That's what they did during Vietnam according to the books, anyways.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:40 am 
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you've got to be careful what you're intending to achieve with conscripts being put into the low end, non-combat jobs, for instance in WW1 the American Army black regiments (segregation, remember) were mostly assigned fetching and carrying roles behind the lines and were universally rated as some of the poorest soldiers on the battlefield, mainly due to a combination of hundreds of years of submissiveness and underachievement being drilled into them and also being issued with jobs where they couldn't even do well if they wanted to. they were also rated as being barely able to see at night and being scared of the dark, so were given no night operations to disprove this etc

conscripts usually are terrible, but often due to being assumed that as they didn't want to join up they're given no real training or chance to excel, a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy etc

my Granddad did his few years of National Service (when we still had it here, post WW2) then signed up for the regular Army as he was one of the conscripts who found his place there, he ended up doing a combat tour in Korea an a NCO and boxing for the Army (not in in, *for* it)

chances are that if he'd been treated like the Black soldiers of WW1 he'd have never wanted to go near the Army again after his time was up, you have to hit a stage somewhere between the two, letting recruits have the chance to do well and enjoy it, and stopping them from causing too much trouble/make too many critical errors. a good screening process in basic training/selection should fix this really, there are lots of areas the army needs ppl in after all, not everyone can be a hardcore SF guy, not all can sit at a radio 24/7 reading, writing and speaking 7 languages, not all can shift boxes or cook meals etc

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:36 pm 
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I remember talking about this with ollie a while back. The physical requirements aren't that tough. I did every one with ease above and beyond the minimum, and I don't actually work out often. Granted I do work a very physically demanding job, its not that hard to be in modest shape and make it. Not all military types look like Rambo.


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