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 Post subject: Re: To reiterate, once more.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:08 pm 
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Abunai! wrote:
Lawlz you didnt get my evershifting and misleading bullshit, also, here are some references to lame and obscure sources


LAWLS, ABUNAI IS POSTING, TIME TO PUT ON THE STUPID GOGGLES

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Lawlz, only now can I see Abunai's point. Durrrrrrrr.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:32 pm 
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Grey, this thread is now in debate club. As such, bullshit like that is not allowed. No ad hominem attacks or other such diversions have any place here.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:41 pm 
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Abunai didnt want to debate with me, so I responded in kind. When Ab has a point, I'll take off the goggles.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:00 pm 
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There's a problem with your assumption here:

You are assuming that every elligible case has the same, exact circumstances. Here, I'll reverse your logic with the 'black people mostly commit not-death-penalty murders';

White people rarely commit murders, but when they do, being middle class for the most part and thus not subject to crimes of passion, they tend to be "heat of the moment" murders, perhaps grusome but overall many people cannot say that they deserve the death penalty even in a 'death penalty elligible' case.

Black people, being poor and stupid, and involved in more violent types of crimes (gang etc) are more likely to be repeat offenders, have reputations, and in general be unremorseful for their crimes. This makes them more likely to be given the death penalty on their own merit than a white person who has committed the same crime.

The only way to really solve this problem then is to go into each individual case and then look to see of the individual jury was prejudiced. However, I find it unlikely, given the entensive appeals system you go through wherein your case is reviewed by many people, not just the supposedly racist people who convicted you, the only other possibility is that there is some grand, white people conspiracy that we arn't all aware of. (You're in on it, admit it)

Anyway, the data you have goes only to a certain point and then stops, you can go only so far into teh data and then stop to make a point, if you want to go all the way however you need more data than you provide, at least for your point.

Also, 5 examples of racism (and two of which I'm not even sure are racism: a veteran district attorney's experience, even if based on race, are usually true; that is like saying its racist to say blacks do drugs more, or do more crime; it may be due to other circumstances, but the point is that for whatever reason, x race member is more likely to engage in y activity) arn't enough to make a case for large-scale conspiracies.

So, in conclusion

http://www.gotn00b.com/links/youlose/

-MiB

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:36 pm 
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I've been shown studies that show that race is a bad predictor in the death penalty when you control for income.

I.E. they did not seek the death penalty in OJ Simpson's brutal double murder case.

Basically, poor people get bad lawyers. Minorities average poorer than whites.

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 Post subject: Culture is an average of values of those within the arbitrarily defined culture.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:17 am 
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Forevergrey wrote:
Abunai! wrote:
Lawlz you didnt get my evershifting and misleading bullshit, also, here are some references to lame and obscure sources

(snip)
Lawlz, only now can I see Abunai's point. Durrrrrrrr.

How about the point where I didn't use any sources, just an argument?
Grey wrote:
Abunai didnt want to debate with me, so I responded in kind.
Incorrect. I would like to note that I used some wit (i.e. context sensitive) in my critiscism of your actions, while you simply said "Ab is stupid! Hahaha funny picture!" Amusing once in a while, but you overuse such tactics.

Kat wrote:
But you're not entirely reading like and idiot, you Special Goodness reject. You're just missing one key thing here, that would say what these stats arn't. How many blacks are cutting deals, compaired to whites?

I'll give you some time to look that up. And then you can go cry.

I'm assuming you already have such data (or know where to quickly get it). Would you kindly share? Same goes for Clay.

Mibbers wrote:
blah blah blah some grand, white people conspiracy that we arn't all aware of. blah blah blah

Or just a general prejudice that usually isn't seen (and wouldn't be believed of our friends or ourselves...after all, racism can only be of the huge, life-consuming amount that the KKK espouses!), as social interaction is still often seperated, and it could very minor and easily overcome by repeated friendships or other forms of social interaction. This does not have to just be from whiteys, either. Judging from the ease of the connection (not whether you believe it true or not) between blacks and being stupid (the poor is undeniably true, but the stupid is another debate), wetback-americans also seem to possess some bias or prejudice when it comes to what they believe of blacks.

Interestingly enough, I've seen studies noting that, for instance, stereotypically black names (e.g. Tyrone) are more easily connected to crimes than whitey names (e.g. people recalled instances of black names connected with crimes easier than white names). Feel free to ignore this, as I simply read a while ago and am too lazy to find the source, again.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 8:47 am 
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Clay having a BA in Sociology, and an abject hater of crappy statistics, I'd personally take his word for it. But I guess he'll come up with the study.

Ab wrote:
mexicans are racist


Well no fucking shit moron. I honestly can't think of a more racist community than a few hispanic ones I've been in - granted, it was towards any non-hispanic (I forget the exact spanish word for it but it translates into dirty races - I found that ironic, given the coloring of hispanics and all) but it was still there, and quite out in the open as opposed to some theoretical, hazily defined 'general prejudice.'

Anyway, as mentioned before, you make some argument and then fail to back it up with facts, I mean can't you just say "I'd like some data, Clay + H-kat" and then shut the fuck up; you're not even really making an argument about an argument, you're taking a snide comment and then trying to deconstruct it, like it fucking mattered or something. Because you seem either dense or just plain blind to the obvious, let me elaborate:

The plea system goes through many, many individuals. The likelihood of all of these people being 'generally racist' seems to be very small, especially with possible minorities, including people of their own race, thrown into the process. Certainly, it would bring into doubt the large numbers; not that they exist but that race is the direct cause of them exist. The 'grand white ppl conspiracy' was a snide comment; you knew this, and went ahead with asshattery far beyond grey (in that it was dishonest asshattery) anyway.

So anyway

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-MiB

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 2:10 pm 
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Abby: I'm also too lazy, It was shared in a sociology class 2 years ago, by the professor.

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 Post subject: You know, I never actually said racism to some degree was bad. It's just assumed.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:45 pm 
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Clay: Okay.

Mibbers wrote:
Ab wrote:
people are racist

blah blah yes, you're right, and thus moronic. After all, it's obvious that people are racist.

And this means that racism (as in, a preconceived notion that because such and such a defendant is of a certain race, he is more likely deserving of the death penalty) isn't in the death penalty, how?

Mibbers wrote:
Anyway, as mentioned before, you make some argument and then fail to back it up with facts, I mean can't you just say "I'd like some data, Clay + H-kat" and then shut the fuck up;

If you were not either dense, or just plain blind to the obvious, you would note this statement is incorrect. I actually said numerous after requesting the studies. Unless you mean you want me to comment on those studies which I have not seen, and frankly know practically nothing about (such behavior I typically leave to you). Let me elaborate:

Maybe...just maybe, I actually am interested in seeing the damn studies before I try to argue against them. I know it's a totally radical idea, but I'm actually interested having arguments that take into account reality. As in, I'm less interested in saying "You're fucking wrong [or right, apparently], and thus a moron," than I am at having an effective, hopefully true, argument.

Quote:
you're not even really making an argument about an argument, you're taking a snide comment and then trying to deconstruct it, like it fucking mattered or something.

Also, good job on the semi-colon, connecting two sentences that have nothing to do with each other (unless you genuinely believe that by requesting information, I am deconstructing snide comments, which I really shouldn't put past you).

Mibbers wrote:
The plea system goes through many, many individuals. The likelihood of all of these people being 'generally racist' seems to be very small, especially with possible minorities, including people of their own race, thrown into the process. Certainly, it would bring into doubt the large numbers; not that they exist but that race is the direct cause of them exist. The 'grand white ppl conspiracy' was a snide comment; you knew this, and went ahead with asshattery far beyond grey (in that it was dishonest asshattery) anyway.

In plain simple words: I think most people are racist, to some degree. This helps black people get further in the process, regardless of whether it's one or a million that are involved in the process and racist. When combined with the peer pressure involved in a jury, it's especially possible for a minorly racist majority to contribute to a death sentence despite those not racist, "especially with possible minorities" like Mexicans, who, as we all know, are huge racists.

Remember, I'm not saying racism to some degree is bad (that's another debate), I'm just saying it's present.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:12 pm 
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Abunai wrote:
And this means that racism (as in, a preconceived notion that because such and such a defendant is of a certain race, he is more likely deserving of the death penalty) isn't in the death penalty, how?


Here's the deal: we've established taht people tend to be prejudice against others not of their race. So why is it just blacks? I have heard this data touted over and over again, but not asians, hispanics, etc.

Wots the deal? If racism (xenophobia, of a kind) is something of a universal among most people, then why no studies or the kind of complaints of the same kind? If such a thing would happen to the black community, why not the asian community?

Either a, everyone isn't really so racist as you would claim, or b, there is ome other correlation (such as money) that nobody is factoring in here. A last possibility is c, that this kind of thing happens but there is nobody bothering about it, but why?

Abunai wrote:
Maybe...just maybe, I actually am interested in seeing the damn studies before I try to argue against them. I know it's a totally radical idea, but I'm actually interested having arguments that take into account reality. As in, I'm less interested in saying "You're fucking wrong [or right, apparently], and thus a moron," than I am at having an effective, hopefully true, argument.


So why did you open your mouth further? To whit -

Abunai wrote:
Or just a general prejudice that usually isn't seen (and wouldn't be believed of our friends or ourselves...after all, racism can only be of the huge, life-consuming amount that the KKK espouses!), as social interaction is still often seperated, and it could very minor and easily overcome by repeated friendships or other forms of social interaction. This does not have to just be from whiteys, either. Judging from the ease of the connection (not whether you believe it true or not) between blacks and being stupid (the poor is undeniably true, but the stupid is another debate), wetback-americans also seem to possess some bias or prejudice when it comes to what they believe of blacks.

Interestingly enough, I've seen studies noting that, for instance, stereotypically black names (e.g. Tyrone) are more easily connected to crimes than whitey names (e.g. people recalled instances of black names connected with crimes easier than white names). Feel free to ignore this, as I simply read a while ago and am too lazy to find the source, again.


A large chunk of non-argument. A response to a snide comment in seriousness, and then a supposed statistic that you have no authority to back up and you refuse to produce.

Take your own advice.

Abunai wrote:
LOLZ INCORRECT GRAMMAR


Woah, thanks, I didn't notice that. I must've rushed everything there. I'll go correct that now. Oh:

Abunai wrote:
And this means that racism (as in, a preconceived notion that because such and such a defendant is of a certain race, he is more likely deserving of the death penalty) is in the death penalty, how?


Changed a little, so it fits better. 3 characters isn't too much to change, right?

Abunai wrote:
In plain simple words: I think most people are racist, to some degree. This helps black people get further in the process, regardless of whether it's one or a million that are involved in the process and racist. When combined with the peer pressure involved in a jury, it's especially possible for a minorly racist majority to contribute to a death sentence despite those not racist, "especially with possible minorities" like Mexicans, who, as we all know, are huge racists.

Remember, I'm not saying racism to some degree is bad (that's another debate), I'm just saying it's present.


And your proof is...

Here's how it weighs down:

Clay has a study that I think his credibility supports on memory just fine. Nobody has bothered to refute it; given that, and the (credible) other explainations, along with the inconsistancies (if everyone is racist, why just blacks? Why not hispanics and asians and even non-american whites, like the irish?), I think there needs more than "I think x" does not quite support your point enough.

H-kat's study is, for the time, irrelevant: the current ones (unless you would like to say Clay is not a credible source; how you would argue that a pretty nice guy with no clear bias and a BA in Sociology is not a credible source is not quite clear, however) put up are.

-MiB

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:54 am 
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The Man In Black wrote:
Here's the deal: we've established taht people tend to be prejudice against others not of their race. So why is it just blacks? I have heard this data touted over and over again, but not asians, hispanics, etc.


Okay, let's say group A is prejudiced against group B, and vice-versa. However, group A is much larger than group B. Now, a giant marathon race is held. Since group A is larger than group B, the majority of the judges will be of group A, and thus overall the decisions of the judges will be biased against group B. Hence, even though both groups are prejudiced against the other, the larger group's prejudice will overpower the smaller group's.

Quote:
Wots the deal? If racism (xenophobia, of a kind) is something of a universal among most people, then why no studies or the kind of complaints of the same kind? If such a thing would happen to the black community, why not the asian community?


See above. Also, asians are generally stereotyped as smart, nerdy types, if anything, and not as criminals.

Quote:
Clay has a study that I think his credibility supports on memory just fine.


Mibby, you're totally missing Abunai's point. Just because a study exists doesn't mean we should believe it. Abby doesn't want information on the study because he thinks Clay's lying about it, he wants information on it so he can more accurately determine whether it was accurate or biased. The only way to rebut a statistic is to know how that statistic was gathered, and if one does not have access to that information, one should not use that statistic in debate.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 4:37 am 
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IcyMonkey wrote:
The Man In Black wrote:
Here's the deal: we've established taht people tend to be prejudice against others not of their race. So why is it just blacks? I have heard this data touted over and over again, but not asians, hispanics, etc.


Okay, let's say group A is prejudiced against group B, and vice-versa. However, group A is much larger than group B. Now, a giant marathon race is held. Since group A is larger than group B, the majority of the judges will be of group A, and thus overall the decisions of the judges will be biased against group B. Hence, even though both groups are prejudiced against the other, the larger group's prejudice will overpower the smaller group's.


That fails to address the issues of group C, D, E, F, and G. A is either racist or not. A racist generally isn't going to be horribly picky about who it is racist against other than not being part of group A. Now, I live in an area where a great deal of the violent crime is in fact caused by group C, yet group C, yet group C doesn't have near as high a number of people on death row, meaning that A must not be truly prejudice against all.

A - Whites
B - Blacks
C - Hispanics, who are the largest current minority in the country, memory serving.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 4:15 pm 
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Vancouver, the biggest gangs? The Koreans. In my city, the Hells Angels and Koreans cause alot of problems. And bloodshed.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:48 am 
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you're no longer even debating upon racism in the death penalty but more upon racism itself. and indeed it is true that you are not only racist against black people but people of any race, even white people who get just as much shit as anyone else does. nothing will ever be fair or just witout someone screaming another is a racist when something goes wrong. :roll:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:10 am 
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Post dates. Post dates are your friend.

Most of the posters in this thread are either gone or here only infrequently.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:41 am 
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Thinman wrote:
Post dates. Post dates are your friend.


Also, cohesion... Cohesion and grammar... Cohesion, grammar, and capitalization... Cohesion, grammar, capitalization, and complete sentances... Cohesion, grammar, capitalization, complete sentances, and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope...

Wait, what?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 10:56 am 
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Shinjiro wrote:
Thinman wrote:
Post dates. Post dates are your friend.


Also, cohesion... Cohesion and grammar... Cohesion, grammar, and capitalization... Cohesion, grammar, capitalization, and complete sentences... Cohesion, grammar, capitalization, complete sentences, and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope...

Wait, what?

You missed out spelling. Plus I fixed it for you. Tsk...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:47 pm 
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I just get such a kick out of how people love to blame Bush for every little thing that they perceive is wrong with this world. Granted, I may not like him, but I don't wake up in the morning and blame Bush because I have a hangover from drinking last night. People need to start blaming themselves, and in kind, take responsibility for their own damn actions. So what if more blacks are executed than whites, did they commit the crime? Even if what you say is true that the judicial system is biased against blacks, does that make them victims? What about Affirmative Action, racial quotas in the workplace, or athletic favoritism? America's racial pendulum swings in both directions. Hopefully someday, it will all eventually balance out.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:47 pm 
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Darkside Cowboy wrote:
So what if more blacks are executed than whites, did they commit the crime? Even if what you say is true that the judicial system is biased against blacks, does that make them victims? What about Affirmative Action, racial quotas in the workplace, or athletic favoritism? America's racial pendulum swings in both directions. Hopefully someday, it will all eventually balance out.


Whites are more likely to get off the hook.
In some cases, yes they are innocent, the false positive rate is much higher for blacks.
Affimative Action and racial quotas blow. However, athletic favoritism? You do realize that the reason that blacks are stronger on average is because slaveowners breed them for strength like sheep. There really is no favoritism there, simply better ability.

And what does this have to do with Bush? Nothing.

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 Post subject: I agree that affirmative action is mostly shit, but likely for different and more ambiguous reasons than you. And seriously, white people get as much shit as blacks do? Maybe if you aren't talking proportionally...
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:09 am 
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Darkside Cowboy wrote:
Blah blah blah stop blaming Bush blah blah blah take some responsibility blah blah blah


Blah blah blah.

I mean, seriously, athletic favoritism? That's like complaining that blacks are cooler than whites.


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