ZOMBIE FORUMS

Growth or Decay, No Stasis, No In-Between.
Such a simple statement, yet it can mean so much. To most Entropy's negative side captures the imagination. They envision societies crumbling, buildings in poor repair, rotting corpses. Some people envision a rusted car on the side of the road. The More historically minded will remember great empires, like Rome Briton and more. Some might even think of their own lives. Look at where things begin to fall apart and say, "Well, that's entropy for you!"
I think it it that last group of people who are closest to getting Entropy to work FOR them. It is too common for people to not think of the flip side. Growth. For anything to grow, it requires energy, and care. Now one of the cool things about the universe is that the universe decides to take care of itself. This is one reason I have an infatuation with the Chaos Theory, the idea of self ordering tendencies. As opposed to the simplistic view of Chaos being the natural end of Entropic Decay and Order being the end of human guidance. Under these guidelines, Chaos and Disorder are one and the same. Chaos Theory suggests that Chaos and Disorder are NOT one and the same, that disorder is the natural end of entropic decay and that Chaos is the universe's way of combating Disorder, and to quote:




Now when it comes to the expression of Human Order, Entropy and Chaos when it comes to societies, namely this one, Khym Forums, I like to make an analogy of a garden. I view a garden as the ultimate expression of human order over nature. Through the energy and creative output of a human, nature is not destroyed or overridden but guided to take the form of the Gardener's design. Weeds are crushed rooted and destroyed, and flowers are nurtured into full bloom. Individual flowers live and die, but everything always is alive and the whole is always growing. Now some people have a different way and allow nature to take full hold. They allow Wildflowers to take hold. In stead of planning, containing and controlling, they Urge, Nurture, and roll with what nature throws their way. This is what I prefer. This holds the philosophy that even weeds can produce beautiful blooms. Some Weeds still have to be removed, and some care needs to be taken but the result is often pleasing to the eye. The problem is, that a wildflower bed requires more attention as it is all too easy for weeds to pop up and mar the beauty of the garden. While some of the time this is just the natural way of the Garden, without a watchful eye the weed could just as easily choke out other flowers and set the entire garden back. And in some cases (such as Creeping Charlies) it is truly difficult to set things straight, and sometimes the garden can never recover to it's full glory. One thing is almost always certain. If energy and effort is not put into the product, all you will ever get is an ugly patch of plants.
Now to bring this back to the current situation here. I personally have been bothered by the Exile's Manifesto an many other things that have happened on this forum. I find that I care too much on this subject to leave this alone. So I think I will address it here. In The Exiles' Manifesto a few comments were stated. Some of them bother me, others I find to be true.


Ok, This is and obvious reference to Grey's forced departure. To relate this back to my analogy earlier:
Grey was a weed. Like many of us we were allowed to stay mainly because all weeds can bloom. Grey did bloom, but he also choked other flowers. It was because of these rare blooms that Grey was allowed to stay, slowly but surely his roots spread deeper and deeper into this flowerbed, and when the Gardener(Kyhm) Realized that it wasn't worth the effort of having this flower here, he pulled it. In other words. If anyone turned against anyone, it was Grey against us. He loved to play the game of "Let's see how far we can push these people," and he often won. However, this time, he lost. If you are citing that as a reason for departure from the forums, I call Bullshit. The turn happened long ago, and is brought about by the one you are raising to martyrdom.



Why not reply with another quote?



Note that this is the simplistic view that equates Chaos with Disorder. We needs rules here. Now for a while an Anarchy of respect worked well. Unspoken ruled existed, then a few guidelines were placed, and people followed them for respect of their fellow peer. Then came people who did not care for respect and guidelines. Until Grey these were usually dealt with relatively quickly. Grey however became the cause of all of this "censoring, banning, and setting up of rules in order to mold the forum to the vision of a few complainers". I actually move that these ruled be removed now that the cause has been killed. Every society needs rules of some kind. Every rule needs punishment. Grey, who we can equate to a serial murderer (for driving off multiple users) has been put to death, being deemed unable of rehabilitation.



I look at this one, I read it's long version, I weigh and measure it's meaning, and I find that this statement is true. I only disagree with there preferred method of fixing this "problem".




Again, the only thing I can disagree with here is the severity of their "solution".





Hmm lots of word there... For the benefit of those with lesser vocabulary.




There must of been an error... Understandable...




Hmm. not that flattering [/pedant]


Ok, I have no clue what you were trying to accuse the forum's system of being, but I can deal with your Ideal.
I would think that to this date, and even now, we ARE a meritocracy. Now from what I know, (correct me if I am wrong) only three people have been banned. 1st, Creed, who I find to be the most controversial of the three. Creed didn't like Poe and bashed him on Poe's own forum. He was weeded out quickly and branded "Troll". Then was a guy (I cannot remember his name) who purposely used corrupted code the fuck up the forums. Kyhm spent days fixing up that mess. His banning was just and expected. Then came Grey, we are all aware of his case, so I won't revive it. In all cases the peoples "Merits" were negative in nature, a detriment to the society as a whole.
Creed, I feel was a sacrificial lamb, he was brought to the forums to be hated. His fate was decided before he arrived. That just tastes wrong to me. I actually think that MiB was around for that. He never complained. The other was a hacker, he deserved his fate. Grey wasn't just an asshole, he actively sought out people to hurt. The suggestion of ignoring him reminds me of public school bullies. Ignore the teasing and it will go away, all the while the line between teasing and harassment is blurred to the point where the bullies get away with anything. His merit was Negative, and he should have been removed long ago for that. No, we let him stay because of tolerance, your ideal would have him banned with the Kali incident.



Wha?



On the flip side, Grey drove off, I think, three people. I would like to think of it as cancer surgery. This becomes an issue of Death Penalty or Not. A contentious issue.



I call Bullshit. But to give it full credit...



You can pull that bullshit with other people, but not with me. I've earned the title of Necromancer and Archiver due to reading the beginning of the forums. Grey would never have survived then, and his longevity on the forums is a biting comment on how far the forums have drifted from their original incarnation.

I know, however, what you are saying about the decline of the forums. With WI's departure and Yevaud's MIA the majority of the intellect has left here. But this brings me back to entropy. Intellect will not show without effort. The Royal Court of Unfounded speculation has been allowed to decay for too long. As the current steward is missing it falls upon either Icy or I to breath life back into it. I personally have made it my mission to revive the PoPPI. I hope to slow or reverse the decay in the hallowed halls.

My actions I hope will bring about your desire.



I wish for a return to the time we were not infected with the Hatmongers ways. I wish for return to the days where the Court was a place of beauty, not an empty hall. I call for a return of The Exiled, those who ran from the Hate. I call for an end to the Drama, to the sensitivities. I call for the removal of the rules. We have need of them now that the Hatmonger has left. I call for us to forget the strife the Hatmonger brought. I call for a renewal of what we had.

I call for us to Grow again.


- Chaos_Descending
Chaos Devotee
Member of the Posse of Pedantic Pseudo-Intellectuals
Owner of a (Stale) Ninja Cookie of Long_assed Multiple post replies
Member of the 900 Club
A Forum Necromancer and "owner" of the Archive AI


P.S. I corrected a number of spelling errors, I'm just too lazy to bold them.

Holy fuck Chaos. Holy fuck. That was hella classy. Though quoting the Principia Discordia may be thrown into question. fnord, eris, etc. etc.

I actually would appreciate it if someone could link this on the Exile Forum. If MiB seperates with that peice he will have to defend it to have my respect on the matter.

If he does defend it then I will respect his descition.

I fby the time I finish reading this forums no-one else will, I would post a link there/

Oh and 'Mad Fucking Props' man, this is Classic.

*I know that it's a double-post, but I don't care*
http://the-expatriates.com/viewtopic.php?t=1&start=40 from the middle.
Chaos, they want you to go and argue with them there... My personnal suggestion: Ctrl-C + Ctrl-V the whole thingy into a new thread.

This IS good. This brings out everything I can think of...

To further your garden analogy a little, with Grey as the weed in the garden of the forum, he latched on to other "flowers" and pulled them up with him when he went. Those flowers in turn have grabbed on to other flowers...and the result is our garden destroyed.

...I just want it the way it was...

Well, sure, why not. A good way to spend a little time of the morning.



I disagree, both with the analogy and the conclusion. The analogy is physical, and by nessesity contains false reasoning because of this, to whit:

A flower can't help being weaker than the weed. The weed overpowers it physically; that is what a weed is 'designed' to do, for the most part (shut up, both CD and Icy: stay on fucking topic. 'Design' is just a convient word, not something I'm claiming.) Another analogy would be a robbery; you are surprised, accousted, and then have your money taken from you, by someone with a physical advantage (surprise, usually a weapon of some kind, etc.)

However, comparing that to a forum is incorrect logic. Suppose the flower could, for example, use some simple process to make itself immune to the weed, but conciously chose not to? (I know, flower != concious, I'm trying to keep the analogy somewhat consistant and its difficult with what you did.) If so, it is the flower equivalent of suicide, is it not?

The analogy is still incomplete: neither the flower nor the weed really have a mind to choose their actions. Let us move to a more charged situation: the robbery. You are a person walking down the street, grey is a robber/murderer. You, however, are immune to harm so long as you wish yourself to be so. Suppose you stop? Is Grey at fault?

Additional thought process, which is required for the above not to be absurd: What could possibly be Grey's motive, when he knows that only someone with a suicide wish would be harmed by his attentions?

The comparison you're making is truly scary. Words that I say are responsible for other peoples actions. Insults in texts, on the intarweb, should it compel someone to action, then the typist is at fault?

A real world extension of logic: I, with all malice, call Icy a retard. Crying and angsting, unable to cope with the fact that I don't like him, Icy commits suicide. By your standards, am I not responsible for Icy's death? Should I not be taken in, put on trial, and found guilty of murder, or at least manslaughter? Is this is what your ideal world is, where I am compelled out of fear to not speak my opinions on other people, unless favorable?

Here, I'll even help you with the solution. Grab the scroll bar on the right hand side of this window. Skip aaallll the way down to after my post, then back up when you are done with this exercise. It might take a bit, because this post will probably be pretty long when I'm done.

Done? Okay, good.

What? People are replying and engaging me (flattered, I'm sure)? Well then, you take that scrollbar, and you scroll past those, too!

Hmm? The entire thread you say? Well then, you see that button over there, says "unrelated stuff"? Click it. Problem solved.

Here is the gist of it all: nobody forces you to care when grey calls you a poopie head. Most people, in fact, do not. When somebody not only chooses to care, but also chooses to be so offended that grey's petty bullshit makes them want to leave, you blame Grey?

*They* made the choice. They chose to care, and then chose to leave. Grey didn't "drive anyone off." He couldn't - he has no physical access to these people to enforce his wishes (supposing he wanted to drive them off) with coercion of any kind. Grey cannot be equivalent to a serial murderer, because the victim of a serial murderer has no choice in the matter - they can't say "No, I'm not going to be abducted, I'm not going to be shot, and I won't die," and have it be true. They can here. The analogies and comparisons up there show that the claiming grey "made" anyone leave is an absurdity. Take it up with the people who left - if they are so affected by being called names

on the internet.

then I truly pity them.



Then we disagree.



Okay, a couple things here.

A) Notice how many times grey is mentioned in my post
B) Note what is actually complained about

The conclusion, then, is twofold: bans are not a measure of what we're going for here. The fact that Grey was banned is also rather irrelevant: it was the atmosphere and policies that made the ban possible. Namely, the forum has decided (either collectivly or merely at the top, depending on who you ask) that those in power should protect those who are offended by being called names, harassed, etc. This is, largely, what happened when Grey was banned. He didn't disrupt the forum; he didn't spam; he didn't do anything really beyond the par of, say, TSC or myself at our worst. As a personal opinion, I thought TSC and I were better, in fact, because Grey lacks imagination or even a variation in tactics. But some people decided that the admin's job is to protect those who are offended by all this and might leave because of it. This is wrong, by my ideals.

I attempted to persuade people many times, in varying situations, that this was wrong. I never succeeded. Several people, tiring of the "drama," told me that 'if you don't like it make your own.' (By your logic, wouldn't they be responsible for the forum split, not me?)

I thought, after a while, that this was a good idea. So I did.



I stayed quiet during the whole mess, iirc, because I didn't really have an opinion: philosophy of morals as it applies to an online community wasn't my concern at the time.

No, he shouldn't have been removed. Ever. You may say as you wish, you can harass as you wish - if you are fool enough to pay attention and value the opinion of a complete stranger who doesn't like you, then that is your beef, not his. Do not have the insolence to tell me what my ideals would have done, you obviously have a very incomplete understanding of them. You also could have simply checked with me to get clarity on this issue, and several others throughout the post: I see you wished merely to make a point, and not to get clarification. Well, good, BDM can suck you off all he wants, but you're not getting any respect for this absolutely lazy bullshit and putting words in my mouth.



See above. Grey "drove off" nobody - they chose to care, and chose to leave.



TSC pulled just as much bull as Grey did, albeit interspaced with other posts. So did several others - it was an insulting place. But you know what? It was a tightly knit insulting place. For the most part we got along, because nobody took things personally - and those who did, left. Lifyre already went over this in the BB.



I can speak only for myself, but I for one will not return until things are as they were. That is, until whoever is running the forum realizes that protecting the sensitive is folly, then I cannot come back here on a permanent basis. This is my view on things, and the reasoning behind them: if you think that it is flawed in some way, contact me privately and I'll be glad to hear your views.

Because I can:



and



Both are true. Kuh pointed out to me that I was missing a bigger flaw in your reasoning than even the ones I pointed out.

Good show on him.

...while I find it a little far fetched...I DO believe that within our system, with the right evidence, you could be found responsible by a court of law, especially if there were "kill yourself" messages or messages encoureging the thought. However to find a situation where you are SOLEY responsible for it is a little bit of a reach.


...if you applied this to all that was said by Grey, then there are entire threads that would be missed and many more that have to be skipped about half way. And what is the POINT of a forum if you stop yourself from reading half of it.


Can you reference the time, or times, when you or TSC revealed personal information on this board?

You are right that insults and name-calling on teh intraweb should be shrugged off, ignored, or whatever else you want to do. But when there is something bared, one of your innermost secrets or something you are truly ashamed of, put out there for the world to find, THAT does damage that cannot be repaired.

This is why Grey is gone.

You could. However, with the way pop media is as it is today(E.G.:See Mindless Self Indulgence- Backmask), the chances of this are relatively small. Also, memory serving, there's not much of a legal precedent for this sort of thing(All cases to date have been civil cases, memory serving).



But isn't the idea of a forum to express yourself? If you don't like someone's opinion, skip over it. Or, if you have the capability, just ignore every last word they say. This is what we do in real life, so why not do it here?




It does? Last time that happened to me, I shrugged it off and kept walking. Anyone who can't do otherwise needs to learn coping skills, and not to take shit so seriously.

Ahh...but pop-media and one-on-one conversation are two very diffrent things, arn't they?

But again, the odds of someone beng able to SOLEY convince a mentally "stable" person to suicide seems out there.


Expression IS what it's about...what I'm saying is that it's easier to find one of those expressions that you enjoy when you don't have to skip entire threads because of an expression you disagree with. If someone's debating the merits of Hitler, and you are of direct Jewish decent of a holocaust victim, you're probably going to ignore that argument. But what if the topic shifts to the technological advances and benifits from WW2 and you miss that because of an idiot spewing off for an hour about the man responsible for your great-grandfather's demise?


I'm hesitant to ask....but what came out? Was it to the extreme like being outed as gay in Arkansas? Did your family or people you know find out?

There are several people here who have brought friends, hell I believe that's how YOU got here, right? If it's put out there to the world, people CAN find out.

...oh, and I was wondering how long until someone called me "BEEDEEEHM" :P

Not to thread hijack, but it was essencially stuff about me and my cousin "playing" as children. And by playing, I mean mouth-to-genital action. I told my uncle, he blackmailed me, I told him to fuck off, he told people. I shrugged it off. There are other situations as well, but I'll quit now before the hijacking damage is too bad. XD

Rusty, you're stronger than most. While it *could* be explained as the whole "innocent child" thing, you indeed take a brave stance. I don't know if I could do that...course I'm not anywhere CLOSE to your shoes...but I know there are many here that could not do that. And even though it was blackmail...there was a "choice" in the matter...I won't ask what the blackmail was, but fact is that many are not as strong.

I don't see that asking people to "walk it off" for such severe things as catering to the lowest common denominator, but more like accomidating for the average. We ALL throw our blows, some of them low, but there has been only two cases where there have been direct shots because of such secrets. Both had Grey throwing the shots.

So we should ban him? It's Kyhm's party, and I totally respect that. However, Grey is like every other human individual; that is, they do stupid shit. I like to adhere to a general policy of universal positive regard(With two exceptions, both I will never acknowledge as human again). While it may seem like a good idea to hate the hater, all that really ends up happening is a cycle; you disapprove of the actions, you lash out, he gets pissed, he keeps going. And it'll just keep going, until you just acknowledge what everyone is feeling(I.E.: Complete and brutal honesty on the matter, *in public*, and moving on with a resolution that will work for both parties), and move on.

... I may be biased, of course, but we're spilling too much blood(And semen!) over the affair.

Yeah totally. All I'm getting over this whole gig is "Much Ado About Nothing".

Well, First off, my thanks to Gazing Rabbit. To answer a number of accusations etc. etc. I find that... I’m not sure if this is the proper word, but... my moral problems with the other forum will not allow me to post there till I can respect it’s birth.

I am however not stopped from reading the responses to GR’s post.



No, but I do think that you guys are leaving under false pretenses. As I said, If you can defend, I will respect, and I mean Respect.

And I will ignore all of the useless insults in there.



No, I read it. This exercise is me trying to understand it...



Ok, that’s it. I make it clear, I agree! I agree with all of you, I however, do not think that your means justify the end, ok?

Now I get to the juicy stuff.



blink blink... um. Ok.

First off, I think for the purpose of the that post, the analogy worked. But it will fall apart if I continue to use it with your next argument.

Which is...



I agree, it is hard to run with that analogy. Let us drop it where it will not work, ok? It will make things easier.



I would not think that Greys actions were a simple act of throwing words at people. Greys words were an act of a bully. I am not talking about the "you are a poo poo head " type bully, I’m talking about the sadistic bastard that enjoys watching a kid be stripped of all joy in his life. Grey was more than a random troll. He actively looked for a chink in a person’s armour, then attacked at that chink. And to make it absolutely obvious, the tactic of "Ignore them and they’ll go away" DOES NOT WORK!



... If we talk about individuals, I will talk about the people Grey hurt. I do not see how individuality can help you in this one. Now, the super entity thing, I will wait till this is done. Now to deal with your summery of my post...

The Unrelated spiel and flowery prose are fair shots. I originally wrote this at work to pass time, and I originally was trying to write poetry on Entropy and Chaos. However, like many of my writing attempts, the end became something quite different from the start. I was also not trying to say individuals do not exist, I was trying to say we are all part of a big picture.


Also upon a second read I realise that we are both accusing each other of being idealists. That does not work really... I think I am being a realist. You’re the one saying that Anarchy works...

Now I know a lot of what I said has been covered by other people, but I write posts from nearest response to the next. This I forget the points brought up later on.

I also note that all I have seen on the other forum is hate for their origins. This is not what I want to hang out in.

oh, and Fixed it for ya...

Lastly, I apologies for the delay. Pesky Real Life came in and stole my time away from me, I was able to steal enough back to write this.

Some of the issues have been cleared up here, let's see if we can have a debate that actually concludes here.

Dude, TSC not spamming is a big call. All the hardcore forumers have at some stage posted incessantly and frequently. Postcounts don't build themselves.

However, TSC never Maliciously spammed.



paraphrased to "ignore the troll."

However, when ignored, this troll still kept a'trollin', actively seeking out the posts of his targets and searching for a barb that gets a reaction. There is a big difference between mibbers calling me a fat slob - something i don't deny and laugh along with - and using personal information to shame, embarress, or otherwise emotionally belittle people. An analogy for this - being stripped naked in the schoolyard.

Honestly, to me, it looked like Grey was TRYING to be banned, trying to see how far he could push the envelope before it was torn up.

but, BACK ON TOPIC,

I still think that Expatriates2 is a good idea. I do not see it as a split or betrayal in any way.

While i may not agree with some of the reasoning for it's creation, or the fanfare with which it was delivered... "We don't like how all you pussies want to water down our pure hardcoreness, we're all leaving you to rot" could have been better said as:

"In the interest of experimentation and the will to express and witness any idea in a forum with less rules we created (THIS) feel free to visit, but understand, we don't play nice."

Once again i'm paraphrasing, and it's only my perception.

i could crap on for hours, as you all know, but once again, i'f far too lazy to continue boring you all. Nowhere has it been stated that either forum is exclusive to the other, it's just that a small group has decided to not post here anymore. Everyone is still welcome to visit them over at The Expatriates 2, just don't take anything over there seriously.

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