Skip to the end if you're bored eaisily.
(04:55:11) Vaergoth: Ever wonder if there's more to PKing in MMO games? Now you know.
(05:00:01) Sako: Nice post.
(05:00:24) Sako: "Waahh, the GMs are being mean :("
(05:00:39) Vaergoth: It's a good idea. Use Player Killers to FORCE players to unite and protect themselves.
(05:01:02) Sako: Rampant Player-Killing = Anarchy, yes?
(05:01:13) Vaergoth: In the first stages, yes.
(05:01:22) Sako: Anarchy = Chaos, yes?
(05:01:26) Vaergoth: But it's based on a simple principle.
(05:01:30) Sako: Hey hey.
(05:01:32) Sako: Follow me on this.
(05:01:33) Vaergoth: Yes.
(05:01:51) Sako: According to Chaos theory, the order only exists when it springs up at random out of chaos.
(05:02:01) Vaergoth: Yes...
(05:02:10) Sako: So therefore it won't work.
(05:02:27) Sako: They'll have to cheat against the PKers somehow to allow players to unite and protect themselves.
(05:02:39) Vaergoth: I don't follow.
(05:02:55) Sako: Where did I lose you?
(05:03:30) Sako: The last step?
(05:03:41) Vaergoth: Yeah.
(05:03:54) Sako: Rampant PKing is chaos.
(05:04:06) Sako: Order doesn't do a very good job of rising out of chaos on it's own.
(05:04:14) Sako: It DOES happen, but it's not at all likely.
(05:04:47) Vaergoth: You're removing conscious decision making from the equasion.
(05:04:49) Sako: Anyone who doesn't thrive on the chaos won't want to play, because they'll be unable to accomplish anything of worth in the game.
(05:05:28) Sako: I suppose, if order DOES arise out of this chaos, it'll be alot like the rise of medievalism in ancient europe.
(05:05:46) Vaergoth: They will either A) do what you said, or B)make a conscious decision to do something about it.
(05:05:47) Sako: PK's will start to band together and carve out their own little territories in the game-world.
(05:05:57) Sako: Who's going to "do something about" chaos?
(05:06:27) Vaergoth: It's not some intangible entity. Player Killers are tangible. They can be killed.
(05:06:38) Sako: There are always going to be more of them
(05:06:47) Sako: And the dead ones will always respawn.
(05:07:04) Vaergoth: There will always be war, but we try our hardest to stop it.
(05:07:30) Sako: The Non-PKs would have to start out with some kind of advantage.
(05:07:46) Sako: Or the world will be exactly like whatshisface describes the early days of UO.
(05:08:27) Vaergoth: You'd merely have to make it so that being PKed does not interfere with progress toward building a character that is capable of hunting player killers. But still hurts. A lot.
(05:08:41) Vaergoth: And you're forgetting.
(05:08:50) Sako: No non-PKer would want to play that game.
(05:08:56) Vaergoth: The ultimate motivation is greed. Bounty hunting?
(05:08:57) Sako: Hooray, I killed got some exp.
(05:08:58) Sako: Ouch. That dick.
(05:09:15) Sako: Why not just kill the guy offering the bounty?
(05:09:26) Vaergoth: It would be a mechanical system.
(05:09:37) Vaergoth: Not person to person.
(05:09:39) Sako: Then that would be an unfair advantage against PKers.
(05:09:45) Sako: Part of what I said.
(05:10:01) Vaergoth: It would merely force them to evolve.
(05:10:14) Vaergoth: Become better at hiding and striking quickly.
(05:10:15) Sako: I honestly doubt that.
(05:10:28) Sako: If some guy kills enough to become the top of the bounty list, chances are he'll be damn powerful.
(05:11:22) Vaergoth: On his own. But do what wish plans to do, then. Scale the level system by multiplier, not exponent like most games do.
(05:11:52) Sako: So that 1 L100 character can be taken down by 100 L1 characters?
(05:11:53) Vaergoth: In wish, a level ten player is exactly ten times more powerful than a level one player.
(05:12:30) Vaergoth: But that's the beauty.
(05:12:40) Sako: Doesn't matter.
(05:12:47) Sako: Either way, your bounty system is designed to curb PKing.
(05:13:02) Sako: Making the game itself a flawed model of order rising out of chaos.
(05:13:03) Vaergoth: PKs don't attack. They raid and strike the weak and defenseless, but in a fair fight, they CAN be taken down.
(05:13:17) Vaergoth: Acutally, that's not the intent.
(05:13:25) Sako: Then what is?
(05:13:47) Vaergoth: To create a perpetual and never ending war between player killers and "crusaders" who kill them.
(05:14:03) Sako: In order to curb PKing.
(05:14:09) Vaergoth: No.
(05:14:13) Sako: Then why?
(05:14:20) Vaergoth: For enjoyment.
(05:14:22) Sako: Both sides kill each other.
(05:14:25) Vaergoth: As a game mechanic.
(05:14:35) Sako: Why should the 'good' side get the advantage?
(05:15:01) Vaergoth: In theory it shouldn't.
(05:15:03) Sako: Maybe if there were two sides.
(05:15:08) Sako: Like, two nations.
(05:15:10) Sako: At war.
(05:15:20) Vaergoth: Then you have planet side.
(05:15:25) Sako: And the "royalty" of either side offered bounties on the other side's most powerful characters.
(05:15:35) Sako: Nah, there can be neutral kingdoms and factions.
(05:15:56) Sako: A merchan'ts guild, a Pirate nation, bandits in the mountains, etc.
(05:16:12) Vaergoth: The point is to take the standard PvP system in most games, and set it against a backdrop of "Those who prey on the weak VS Those who defend the weak".
(05:16:54) Sako: As in, Good PKs vs. Bad PKs becomes the story?
(05:17:27) Vaergoth: "PK" is understood to mean only those who attack players that have no chance of fighting back.
(05:17:38) Vaergoth: griefers.
(05:17:42) Sako: Whatever.
(05:18:16) Sako: Makes for a pretty boring story.
(05:18:32) Sako: Especially since the good side, being unfairly advantaged, will eventually win.
(05:18:36) Vaergoth: It wouldn't be the only story, obviously.
(05:18:44) Sako: Oh.
(05:18:55) Sako: That's not what you made it sound like when you said "set it against the backdrop"
(05:18:57) Vaergoth: It would be the backdrop and drive for the PvP system.
(05:19:21) Vaergoth: It couldnt work as taking center stage.
(05:19:26) Sako: Nope.
(05:19:29) Sako: I see.
(05:19:45) Sako: That's basically what I've been saying.
(05:19:52) Vaergoth: Eventually, this system would replace town guards.
(05:20:11) Vaergoth: But that'd be well after the system is established.
(05:20:16) Sako: They'd probably just disallow PVP inside towns.
(05:20:32) Vaergoth: That breaks the system.
(05:20:37) Sako: Noobies need safe havens.
(05:20:45) Sako: Or they'll get discouraged and stop playing.
(05:20:52) Vaergoth: Yeah, I suppose.
(05:20:54) Sako: And the game designers don't want that.
(05:22:38) Vaergoth: But the point is that one group of players is encouraged to prey on the defensless (that being the group that would do that in the first place anyways), and the other group encouraged to hunt them down and punish them for it. Basically, offer in game rewards for what's being done anyways, to foster equilibrium between the two sides.
This is based on an article from "False Prophecies" written by Hedron. You can read it
here, but the gist of it is basically this: The designers of UO made the PK system so slanted toward the killers because they hoped it would make players fed up enough to band together and eradicate them, creating a killerless society and policing themselves.
Obviously, this failed, but it brings up an interesting concept: Player Killers VS. Killer Hunters.
What I'm saying here is, create a PvP system that fosters both Player Killers to kill more, and people who are fed up with it to go after them. At the very least, it would be an interesting backdrop for PvP.
Or am I stupid? Would it work?