ZOMBIE FORUMS

Excepting the obvious "Your case, fool," when is suicide a reasonable option? When is it a <i>good</i> option? Why then, and not other times?

I look at it like this: suicide is going willingly to your near-certain death when you have the option to do otherwise. In some cases, doing so has certainly been considered noble. Take, for instance, Socrates and his hemlock, or Jesus and his cross. Or, to stretch a point, take Gandhi and his hunger strikes. I can name any number of people who let themselves go to their death, whose self-sacrifice is considered noble, admirable. Throwing one's life away, killing oneself, for a cause is apparently something hard to do, boast-worthy.

However, why do we constantly look down upon many suicides? Why do we label them foolish, or weak? If throwing one's life is really such a difficult action to take, then why? Is it because it's as selfish as a P.O.W. trying to escape torture?

No, with the exception of matrydom (you die saving another's life) then it is not.

Does your definition of suicide exclude euthanasia?
What i mean is, if someone who is dying slowly, painfully, and incurably, is that person's taking his or her own life suicide under you definition?

how many suicides are for something rather than because of something? we look down on the people who commit suicide to escape their troubles, rather than as a means of confronting them and improving things for those still living.

I'm agreeing.

Suicide is looked down upon for a large part because it's done by those who can't handle what their life is currently throwing at them.

I remember there was a suicide that happened while I was in high school, some guy commited suicide, allegedly because of problems at school. You know what? That guy was a coward. If it was problems at school, you have several options: 1) homeschool. 2) transfer. 3) deal with it you pussy, you're there for, at most, 3 more years, unless you're a braindead retard and can't manage to pass 10th grade, and are too fucking stupid to drop out once you hit 18.

Personally, I prefer #3.

As for 'it takes alot to commit suicide,' I counter with 'obviously not.' There are people who commit suicide all the time who cannot even talk to their parents about their problems. If they find ending their life to be easier than talking, obviously ending your life is not all that hard (for those people).

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On an aside: Of the attempted suicides, far more guys succeed where girls fail. I think this is because I guy could never live it down (so to speak) if he tried to kill himself and failed. ("Dude! You suck so bad you couldn't even manage point the gun at your head right!")

Actually, it's because guys tend to pick more certain methods. It's harder to fail to kill yourself with bullet to the head than it is with a bottle of sleeping pills; it's a lot easier to save someone who slit her wrists (even the right way) than someone who jumps off a building.

I think that comes back to that they would be seriously ragged on if they failed to kill themselves when they tried.

So more women 'attempt' suicide (and I think they intentionally fail, so as to gain sympathy for the fact that their lives are no different than our own), but more men 'commit' suicide (and intentionally do it in such a manner that there is little margin for error).

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I've already determined that if I own my own country (or rule the world, you know, whatever works), then Attempted Suicide will be a crime punishable by death. ("You can't do it yourself? Let us help!")

:P
For obvious reasons.

I found that switching schools helps a great deal in situations like that - but it's expensive to switch to a private school (especially alternative method ones), and a lot of parents won't shell out the money if they don't see it as particularly necessary.

Personally, in a situation like that, I recommend committing yourself to the psych ward. I mean, there are disadvantages, but if you make use of it, it's really helpful and worth it. Again - some parents don't think that's necessary or insurance won't cover it. So to get in, the teen is forced to try to commit suicide so that they'll send him/her to the mental hospital for attempting suicide (I was afraid I'd have to use this option two years ago. Luckily, my mom took me in the morning after my breakdown that night.)

And... because I've been in the hospitals, I happen to know that there are a great many attempts that teenagers take on their lives and fail to succeed. As many successful suicides as there are, there are triple or quadruple numbers of failed attempts if not more. I know several kids in my new school have attempted to take their lives in the past (they're stable and more happy now). So...

I don't look down on suicides, mainly because I empathise. But I do try to help people realize that they're only trying to flee life, not embrace death - which is what happens in most cases. Embracing death to me is brave. Fleeing life is confusion, and it's all I can do to help people work through that.

I see the matter rather simply, so forgive me if it seems a bit cut and dried:

Suicide is the most wrong thing that you can ever do, afaik irrelevent of your religious beliefs. As I understand it if you're a Christian it's one of the few 'mortal' sins that will send you straight to hell; life is the greatest gift God has bestowed upon you and to take your own is the same as denying this gift. I believe a similar opinion is held by most western religions but i've not really studyed any in depth so i'll refrain from commenting. If you're an athiest then you believe that there is no God/afterlife and such so killing yourself is in effect ending everything, you'll cease to exist... bad.

But for me the most important reasoning is that it is, imho, the most cowardly thing you can ever do; it's the same as saying that whatever shit is motivation you to do this is worse than the pain and <b>guilt</b> that the people you leave behind will feel.

ptlis

Long time, three years. Long time for a fourteen year old. Long time for a little guy who's been put in boarding school by a big shot step father, and his mother's too dependant to do anything. It's a long time to wait, three years (assuming you've already made it past year one, which this subject didn't). It's a real long time when you're getting ass raped at a boys' school. It must've seemed an awful long time for my cousin. But he was just a pussy, duh.

Some people don't have you're apparently impervious armor of self righteous "I got stones" rhetoric. Just because they aren't demigods doesn't mean there's something wrong with them.

That too.

And it makes a big difference when you're a teenager, adolencent, or even child. The first three years of someone's life is said to have the most impact on who they become (how they're ego begins to manifest itself to set a life perspective that can only be altered as the years pass by).

Three years is a long time to be traumatized as a child. The abuse that incures during those times becomes ingrained in the mind, because the mind is most suseptable to that. From years 5-8 or 9, the abuse (physical, emotional, whatever) that you have inflicted can have a serious impact on the person and how they adjust to the world. A friend of mine was abused by his uncle all through his younger years. Now he's a pre-op transexual, has MPD, and gets government welfare because anytime he tries to hold a job (volunteer or paying) - he ends up in the hospital.

Three years in a teenagers life between 14-17 can be utter Hell. These are the years when the teenage mind is learning how to cope with stress, responsibility and creating its outlook on the world. Teenage years are the awkward transition from child to adult. The changes are incredibly rapid, and weeks stretch out as months. A whole year, and you don't even recognize a person. In three years... well.

This is why psychiatrists and psychologists refrain from diagnosing someone with a personality disorder until they are 21 years old. At 21 years, the brain is no longer undergoing such rapid changes and growth. It has fully developed. A personality disorder is a permanent thing. While a teenager who has multiple symptoms of a personality disorder has a chance to overcome and outgrow them (which is what happened with me - which is why I know so much about it).

Three years doesn't seem so much when you're an adult. But it wholey different to a teenager who has the means to off themselves.

If I ever end up like some of my older brothers have, I surely hope I have enough good sense to put one through my skull rather than continue living like that.
(I don't have much respect for the way some of my brothers' choices in life, obviously.)

No, my definition does not exclude euthanasia. This is why I disagree with ptlis.


Not necessarily.

Everyone does what they can to have more happiness than suffering, whether it be through money, artistic expression, love, or other fufillment of personal ambition. If there's genuinely more pain than happiness in store for one's future, it seems only logical to go for the path with more happiness and less suffering (and please disregard any guilt for doing so; you won't be feeling it, most likely). It would be, frankly, stupid to purposefully cause oneself pain when it could be avoided. If one is in a concentration camp, knowing they will worked to death, or worked and then executed, and they don't get much out of the whole 'work for your oppressors" thing, then quick death seems the better option compared to pain, then death, no?

That isn't saying I think most suicides are justified; I think it's generally a very foolish idea. There are exceptions, but most situations wherein suffering is greater than happiness can be rectified, can be fixed, albeit often through large amounts of effort. If one doesn't have the force of will to go through this effort...well, I'm certainly not in a position to say whether that's weak, or just normal. Nor, for that matter, am I really in a position to say whether there are cases of psychological damage where it would take more time (and suffering) to treat than is worth it, though I believe it possible.


I <i>do</i> like the amount of bullshit that would get rid of. I know at least one person who "attempted suicide" for the sake of attention.

I know that if I would ever find myself in such a state I would commit suicide.
Other than that, people that fail to kill themselves should be considered as dead, they are too incompetent to be part of my gene pool.
Ptlis: for your theological argumant - I don't remember *any* law in the bible (and I've read all the laws there are for a school work) that say anything bad about suicide. Probably because a dead man won't care... Have you heard about Metzada? Aprox 300 men and women commited suicide there before the Roman army could capture the fort (that held for five years before it fell).

Then yes, there are times when suicide is justified.

I think the term "justified" is wrong.

In the mind of the guy who commits (or attempts) suicide, it's always justified, or he wouldn't do it.

In the mind of those left behind, it's hardly ever justified.

I seriously considered suicide twice in my life, once long long ago after a very weird and messed up period of my life, and once more recently. Both times there was no polite, legal, clean, honest solution to my problems. Both times I decided to buck the system, and become a selfish S.O.B. until I got out of the situation.
End results are that, yeah I screwed up some important relationships in my life, yeah I'd deserve severe punishment for what I've done, yeah I live with the emotional scars which will never truly go away, but I'm happy I didn't off myself, and I'm alive, and those problems are past me now.

So I'd say that it's a very subjective topic, but those who are planning on committing suicide more than anything else need our (as in, we their friends and family) help, for there's nearly always a way out, even if not pleasant.
I'd say eutanasia is a different thing, but if you include it in the "suicide" category, then it would be part of those situations when there's no way out.

R-

edit: I keep forgetting stuff.. and I make typos

I second this. But then again, my friends have just nicknamed me "the one person support group." :P

I had sincerily tried to be nice to people for about three years in a row. I sucked a it. There are less than ten people (excluding family) that I'll actually go out of my way to help.
Being an egocentrical solepsistic narcissist makes me a happier person, and I've heard that some people were even calling me a 'nice guy' behind my back.
The last time that I *really* felt like shit was when I failed a math test a year ago.

All that stuff above was ment to show that I'm not a people's person, and because of that, never thought of commiting suicide. That's the happy me.

I think it can be the strongest thing one can do. For some people, trying to improve their situation isn't an option. Sometimes, you really don't have the option to get out of a bad situation, esp. during HS when alot of people hardly have a choice over their own life.

And, when you're sitting there, honestly ready to end your life, you really don't spend much time thinking about other people's feelings. Generally, suicidal people give off signs for a period of time before they go and do it. They, having conciously, or even unconcously called for help and having no one catch on, have stopped caring about others feelings, I mean, if they cared, they would've noticed sooner, right?

...you don't know anybody who's tried to/succedded to commit suicide have you? Sure they give of signals and you do everything you can to help them but sometimes they don't want to help and shory of following them around 24/7 you can't make sure that they don't decide to slash their wrists/take an overdose of paracetamol etc. Additionally I strongly believe that if people can work through <b>anything</b>; if I can lead a normal life after seeing my mother raped then people can get over some bullying or whatever. I'm sure there are people who've been through worse, don't get me wrong but you're killing yourself over short-term pain/suffering.

And I am fine for euthenasia if the person is in pain and will certainly die; I've seen two grandparents slowly die from cancer and I can understand why after a certain point people would want to end their lives (although it's not something i'd do). Euthenasia is not only humane for the person dying but also to some extent for the family; they still have the grief of losing somebody they love but they've missed the dehumanising that can happen with some long-term illnesses.

ptlis