ZOMBIE FORUMS

It's a stinking, shambling corpse grotesquely parodying life.
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:22 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: The Afterlife (from Step-Stone thread)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:25 am 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 3447
Location: New York
Kali_Ava wrote:
However, that's not to say that the life energy, your Spirit (soul, whatever), is dead as well. No energy can be destroyed (or created), just converted and transformed.


Since you're citing a scientific law (and one that's not entirely correct, but let's ignore that for a second), I'm assuming that you're using the scientific definition of energy, i.e. the ability to do work. With this in mind, I ask you: what work can this "energy" actually do? The energy that animates living things is derived from the potential energy of the chemical bonds in the food we eat, and any energy we expend is pretty much equal to the energy we take in via food. Keep in mind that work (force applied over a distance) is a scientific quantity and can be measured as such. What scientific evidence is there for the existence of this "life energy", whose existence would imply that living things expend more energy than they take in via food? And if you weren't using the strict, scientific definition of energy but were rather using the term metaphorically, why did you invoke the Law of Conservation of Energy?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Afterlife (from Step-Stone thread)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 7:04 am 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 3706
IcyMonkey wrote:
Kali_Ava wrote:
However, that's not to say that the life energy, your Spirit (soul, whatever), is dead as well. No energy can be destroyed (or created), just converted and transformed.


Since you're citing a scientific law (and one that's not entirely correct...

Huh? I did quite a bit of physics at college and even when we started to get into the more advanced topics, heading towards the stuff WI seems to love I was still always told that energy could not be destroyed, merely changed into a different form. I might be remembering this incorrectly, it was a long time ago but I seem to recall E=mc<sup>2</sup>'s effects being explained in real terms; if you speed a particle up to the speed of light and still keep giving it energy the energy is converted to mass (or something like that). Is this what you're reffering too?

I agree with the rest of what Icy said, and infact believe it to be (foolish/nieve) to try to backup spiritual beliefs with fact...

_________________
There's mischief and malarkies but no queers or yids or darkies
within this bastard's carnival, this vicious cabaret.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 8:12 am 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 6:10 pm
Posts: 2571
...

Eh. Just chalk it up to me being too young and ignorant to know anything of any value.

Please don't try to debate my ideas. I'm not going to defend them, because I don't have any real knowledge and studies to base them off of. I don't even know why I believe in a Spirit. I was actually going through the processes of revising that in my head in further relation to the mind.

You have to understand, all of my so-called theories and ideas are based mostly on intuition. I don't know what rules I'm breaking or anything. I'm basically a groping blind person, learning to see, and I'm nowhere near being able to make much out.

But I'm going to go on a whim here, instead of being upset, because I'm bored. And what better way to learn and revise your own theories, neh? I'm lucky to have pedants like you. Keep in mind, I'm not debating, I'm rambling and thinking out loud. Please, PLEASE don't rip me apart, I break easy.

IcyMonkey wrote:
Since you're citing a scientific law (and one that's not entirely correct, but let's ignore that for a second),

I understand what ptlis is talking about, and I happen to agree, though I've not been so extensively schooled (yay high school!). What are you talking about?

IcyMonkey wrote:
I'm assuming that you're using the scientific definition of energy, i.e. the ability to do work.

That would be the smart and consistant thing to do, wouldn't it?

Actually, I've been thinking... perhaps very wrongly, though it's at least been a tool for coming to understand a lot of things, that everything is made up of energy. Don't call me retarded for that, I don't know any better. *bap* I was under the impression that science doesn't explain everything, though that's a dirty cop-out, so I'm not going to use it... yet.

IcyMonkey wrote:
With this in mind, I ask you: what work can this "energy" actually do?

To tell you the truth, this was what I was wondering about myself as I made my post in that topic. What's its purpose? What does it do? For as long as I've rambled on about this, have I never questioned what it was? Or did I already have an explaination?

I always believed in willpower. Perhaps I thought that the Spirit was something below the range of the Ego. Mind would be Ego. Subconsciousness... a part of the Spirit. And my thinking that the true will power residing inside of a person rests within their subconscious. I guess it was an easy way to divide the two. Hrm. New Agey terms... who needs 'em? </bitter>

Willpower is capable of many workings. Mainly dealing with interaction with other parts of the brain/body/aura, and possibly with the... (and I hate to use this term) energy around us. And I say energy, because I guess I'm referring to potential energy. I'm not quite sure how to put this into appropriate words. Bear with me...

I guess, if something were to explain it best, it'd be its own dimension. The Astral Plane... I see that as not something we travel to, but something that our brain is capable of sensing and interpreting. The reason we call it a plane is because that's the way it's most comprehensible to us. But I'm of the mind that what has only been scientifically proven is not all that affects our daily lives. There is energy (in that damned plane) that works in our lives as well, but I wouldn't be able to tell you how. Mainly you access it through meditation (look into tantric kundalini some, will you).

Hrm. I don't know if that makes sense. But that's how I've been looking at it recently.

Icy Monkey wrote:
The energy that animates living things is derived from the potential energy of the chemical bonds in the food we eat, and any energy we expend is pretty much equal to the energy we take in via food.

I understand that.

IcyMonkey wrote:
What <i>scientific</i> evidence is there for the existence of this "life energy", whose existence would imply that living things expend more energy than they take in via food?

You make a truly valid point. I guess I was saying something so ridiculous. Though it was unintentional (still is if I'm still saying the same thing).

Uhm... auras/chakras are not part of this "Spirit" that I talk about. I see those as something naturally produced by the body. At this point, I'm not quite sure how, but I know that imagining that they are real is very useful in helping maintain your body. (WILLPOWER AHOY!) It may even just be an imaginary device used to help focus our minds to help connect with our bodies. However, I've not seen enough evidence to completely dismiss the existance of auras and their visibility. I guess what's been explained to me is that it's felt at heat energy. If that makes any sense. You feel your body heat = you feel your aura.

IcyMonkey wrote:
And if you weren't using the strict, scientific definition of energy but were rather using the term metaphorically, why did you invoke the Law of Conservation of Energy?

Because I'm a silly little child.

_________________
-DNI ~ by Ezelek
I have earned the title of Pedant.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 9:19 am 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 3447
Location: New York
Kali_Ava wrote:
Please don't try to debate my ideas. I'm not going to defend them, because I don't have any real knowledge and studies to base them off of.


But see, the way you gain understanding is through debate. Debate helps you to understand exactly what it is that you believe, figure out whether there are any logical contradictions inherent in your beliefs, and modify your ideas accordingly.

"Debate", for me, involves the following:

  • Each debater proposes an idea or judgment and attempts to explain the reasoning behind it.
  • Other debaters point out flaws or inconsistencies in the reasoning used to defend these ideas.
  • Each debater responds to the critique of the other debaters by either pointing out flaws or inconsistencies in the critique itself, or modifying their original position to eliminate whatever flaw was found.

This is different than what I'll call disputation, which is simply two people with set opinions, each trying to prove the other wrong. Debate is just a group of people bouncing ideas off each other. Intellectual growth is totally impossible without some form of debate, either internal or external.

Quote:
You have to understand, all of my so-called theories and ideas are based mostly on intuition.


Which is exactly why you need to debate your ideas with other people. If you cannot rationally defend an opinion, you shouldn't have one. By debating with others, you'll either understand the rational basis behind your ideas (since you're forced to defend them rationally), or realize that there is no rational basis behind them.

Quote:
IcyMonkey wrote:
Since you're citing a scientific law (and one that's not entirely correct, but let's ignore that for a second),

I understand what ptlis is talking about, and I happen to agree, though I've not been so extensively schooled (yay high school!). What are you talking about?


Energy can be destroyed, by being converted to matter, and vice versa. However, the total amount of matter/energy in the universe does remain constant. (More or less. I'm ignoring silly little things like virtual particles in quantum physics, which involve matter being created in a vacuum. Suffice to say, long-term, large-scale loss or gain of matter/energy is impossible.)

Quote:
Actually, I've been thinking... perhaps very wrongly, though it's at least been a tool for coming to understand a lot of things, that everything is made up of energy.


Well, since matter and energy are essentially two forms of the same basic thing, I suppose one could say that "everything is made up of energy". In fact, physicists today generally don't even measure elementary particles using standard units of mass-measurement, but instead use units of energy - electron volts (eV). A proton, for example, has a mass of about .938 GeV.

IcyMonkey wrote:
I always believed in willpower.


Please explain what you mean by "willpower". You didn't really define it, and because of this the paragraph that follows the quoted sentence is extremely vague and confusing.

After that, you start talking about "aura" without defining what exactly "aura" is or providing a rational defense of its existence. Same with your talk of an "astral plane" and "chakras". You have to learn how to organize your thoughts more clearly. I don't mean to sound mean or condescending. It's just that I can't argue against you when you don't present any clearly defined ideas to argue against.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 9:51 am 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 6:10 pm
Posts: 2571
IcyMonkey wrote:
Kali_Ava wrote:
Please don't try to debate my ideas. I'm not going to defend them, because I don't have any real knowledge and studies to base them off of.


But see, the way you gain understanding is through debate. Debate helps you to understand exactly what it is that you believe, figure out whether there are any logical contradictions inherent in your beliefs, and modify your ideas accordingly.

"Debate", for me, involves the following:

  • Each debater proposes an idea or judgment and attempts to explain the reasoning behind it.
  • Other debaters point out flaws or inconsistencies in the reasoning used to defend these ideas.
  • Each debater responds to the critique of the other debaters by either pointing out flaws or inconsistencies in the critique itself, or modifying their original position to eliminate whatever flaw was found.


^^;; Yeah. I understand that. It was just that they're not ready to be debated yet. Debate to me, is something official, where you have a solid, persuasive stance. Before that is discussion, which is where I like to be. Debate... on my own ideas... is extremely intimidating.

Quote:
Quote:
IcyMonkey wrote:
Since you're citing a scientific law (and one that's not entirely correct, but let's ignore that for a second),

I understand what ptlis is talking about, and I happen to agree, though I've not been so extensively schooled (yay high school!). What are you talking about?


Energy can be destroyed, by being converted to matter, and vice versa. However, the total amount of matter/energy in the universe does remain constant.


Ah. I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

IcyMonkey wrote:
Quote:
I always believed in willpower.


Please explain what you mean by "willpower". You didn't really define it, and because of this the paragraph that follows the quoted sentence is extremely vague and confusing.

After that, you start talking about "aura" without defining what exactly "aura" is or providing a rational defense of its existence. Same with your talk of an "astral plane" and "chakras". You have to learn how to organize your thoughts more clearly. I don't mean to sound mean or condescending. It's just that I can't argue against you when you don't present any clearly defined ideas to argue against.


There's a reason they're vague. Heh. I think I'd rather call you and discuss thing face to face (as close as is possible) rather than write out a very flawed and yet still vague arguement.

_________________
-DNI ~ by Ezelek
I have earned the title of Pedant.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:02 am 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 3447
Location: New York
Kali_Ava wrote:
Debate... on my own ideas... is extremely intimidating.


You don't have to necessarily debate from a position you agree with. Hell, I take positions I disagree with and attempt to defend them in debate all the time. It's not so much a question of proving yourself right, as it is of reaching a better understanding of the issue at hand.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:58 am 
Offline
Local
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:38 pm
Posts: 399
Location: The other end of the phoneline
IcyMonkey wrote:
Kali_Ava wrote:
Debate... on my own ideas... is extremely intimidating.


You don't have to necessarily debate from a position you agree with. Hell, I take positions I disagree with and attempt to defend them in debate all the time. It's not so much a question of proving yourself right, as it is of reaching a better understanding of the issue at hand.


Playing devil's advocate can be so fun. Trouble is when someone starts attacking you personally for something that you said that you didn't actually agree with, and then won't listen afterwards to you refuting your own comments.

As for the whole life energy bit - I have a theory, one that I'm quite unsure of, that this 'life energy' serves to influence the likelihood of different quantum states. I know relatively little about the physics/metaphysics involved at that level, though, and haven't had much time to research (not to mention not quite knowing where to begin).

_________________
I wish I had a signature rather than just a lame joke about not having a signature.

DNI'd = Kali_Ava and darksetyuna.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:09 am 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:44 pm
Posts: 1821
Location: Home! Wheeeeee!
Icy wrote:
Energy can be destroyed, by being converted to matter, and vice versa. However, the total amount of matter/energy in the universe does remain constant. (More or less. I'm ignoring silly little things like virtual particles in quantum physics, which involve matter being created in a vacuum. Suffice to say, long-term, large-scale loss or gain of matter/energy is impossible.)
not really,

Because...

Icy wrote:
Well, since matter and energy are essentially two forms of the same basic thing, I suppose one could say that "everything is made up of energy". In fact, physicists today generally don't even measure elementary particles using standard units of mass-measurement, but instead use units of energy - electron volts (eV). A proton, for example, has a mass of about .938 GeV.


This is why Einstein's relativity equations led to the developement of the atomic bomb. When you convert energy (kinetic/radiant/thermal/etc.) into matter, all that energy is locked up as potential energy in molecular, atomic and sub-atomic bonds. You haven't destroyed it, you've only changed its form. In the same way, when you burn a log, you release radiant, thermal, and kinetic energy by disolving and creating molecular bonds. (you actually have several state-changes as well. Some of the wood vaporizes before it combines with oxygen, then resolidifies as ash, often in small enough particles that the rising air (hotter air is less dense, and so lighter, than colder air) carries it upwards as smoke.

Eventually, you get into other fun stuff, like entropy. (energy can neither be created, nor destroyed, but loses quality every time it changes form)

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 31 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group