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 Post subject: Christianity and Polytheism
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:13 am 
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Polytheistic - the trinity thing
Idol worshipping - that cross dealy they pray to
Heathen - we do all know that the christmas tree comes from the druidic religions right? and that almost everything else comes from Greko-Roman and Scandanavian cultures (the goddess Hel became Hell, etc)?

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Last edited by Proin Drakenzol on Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks that Christianity is a Polytheistic, Idol worshipping, heathen religion?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:52 am 
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Proin Drakenzol wrote:
Polytheistic - the trinity thing

It's actually a three in one deity and all are technically considered to be one being. Or that's my vague recollection.
The saints and Mary are considered as intermediaries along with all the other angels.

Quote:
Idol worshipping - that cross dealy they pray to.

That's a sucky suggestion of idol worshipping, you'd have been better off suggesting all the thousands on saint's relics out there, but whatever. Personally I never have gone with worshipping the cross so have no idea what exactly you're on about.

Quote:
Heathen - we do all know that the christmas tree comes from the druidic religions right? and that almost everything else comes from Greco-Roman and Scandanavian cultures (the goddess Hel became Hell, etc)?

dictionary.com wrote:
Heathen - 1. a. One who adheres to the religion of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.
b. Such persons considered as a group; the unconverted.

2. a. One who is regarded as irreligious, uncivilized, or unenlightened.
b. Such persons considered as a group.

Heathen is a rather useless word in that context, but I get what you mean. As far as I'm concerned, the early Christians made a smart move in co-opting deities and religious observances from other religions. It makes it easier for the religion to acquire converts if they can go on with the same celebrations as before. Hinduism has done it as well. Islam, not as much.


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 Post subject: End crappy thread alert
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:50 pm 
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Vass wrote:
Proin Drakenzol wrote:
Polytheistic - the trinity thing

It's actually a three in one deity and all are technically considered to be one being. Or that's my vague recollection.
The saints and Mary are considered as intermediaries along with all the other angels.


As far as I knew, all three were one being. Three different incarnations, but all the same being. It was more a symbolism thing - God the Creator, God the Saviour, God the Preserver. Or something. I don't know, it's been about three years since I went to church (and four since I was a Christian). Anyone practicing, feel free to correct me.

And... as far as I know, they are a trinity, because a trinity is a symbol of massive power. Lies in old pagan symbolism... etc.
Quote:
It represents divinity, the soul of the world, the spirit of man. It is meditation, atonement, completeness--beginning, middle and end. Three represents... control and authority over others[.]



Vass wrote:
Quote:
Idol worshipping - that cross dealy they pray to.

That's a sucky suggestion of idol worshipping, you'd have been better off suggesting all the thousands on saint's relics out there, but whatever. Personally I never have gone with worshipping the cross so have no idea what exactly you're on about.


I've not seen many examples of this. The cross is symbolic of the sacrifice Jesus made to save all of mankind. So worshipping the cross, in and of itself, is idoltry - but Christians do not worship the cross. They worship that which the cross reminds them of (Jesus --> God) and are greatful for what it represents (their salvation).

Quote:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.



Vass wrote:
Quote:
Heathen - we do all know that the christmas tree comes from the druidic religions right? and that almost everything else comes from Greco-Roman and Scandanavian cultures (the goddess Hel became Hell, etc)?

dictionary.com wrote:
Heathen - 1. a. One who adheres to the religion of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.
b. Such persons considered as a group; the unconverted.

2. a. One who is regarded as irreligious, uncivilized, or unenlightened.
b. Such persons considered as a group.

Heathen is a rather useless word in that context, but I get what you mean. As far as I'm concerned, the early Christians made a smart move in co-opting deities and religious observances from other religions. It makes it easier for the religion to acquire converts if they can go on with the same celebrations as before. Hinduism has done it as well. Islam, not as much.


The heathen thing made me laugh. Christians are not heathens by definition. They are the ones who call pagans heathens <i>beacause</i> they are not monothiestic, as a form of derogatory name-calling. Like someone calling a male homosexual a faggot to try and make the guy feel bad.

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 Post subject: Re: End crappy thread alert
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:11 pm 
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Kali_Ava wrote:
Vass wrote:
Proin Drakenzol wrote:
Polytheistic - the trinity thing
It's actually a three in one deity and all are technically considered to be one being. Or that's my vague recollection.
The saints and Mary are considered as intermediaries along with all the other angels.
As far as I knew, all three were one being. Three different incarnations, but all the same being. It was more a symbolism thing - God the Creator, God the Saviour, God the Preserver. Or something. I don't know, it's been about three years since I went to church (and four since I was a Christian). Anyone practicing, feel free to correct me.
You're close, but not there. The Holy Trinity is probably closest to aspects of God's personality than anything:
  • The Father: God as the creator of everything, and caring for all of his creations.
  • The Son: God on Earth in the form of Jesus; he has all the powers of God but is flawed like humans and as such Jesus is more approachable to some.
  • The Holy Ghost: This name is misleading and is not reffering to, as many non-Christians believe, to a ghost in the traditional sense. It is better to think of it as The Holy Spirit; this is the aspect of God that Christians believe is in all of us.

Kali_Ava wrote:
And... as far as I know, they are a trinity, because a trinity is a symbol of massive power. Lies in old pagan symbolism... etc.
Quote:
It represents divinity, the soul of the world, the spirit of man. It is meditation, atonement, completeness--beginning, middle and end. Three represents... control and authority over others[.]
This may or may not be true, it is indeed fact that early Christians took many holidays and ideas from paganism, so the potential is there that The Holy Trinity was created for this purpose.


Kali_Ava wrote:
Vass wrote:
Quote:
Idol worshipping - that cross dealy they pray to.
That's a sucky suggestion of idol worshipping, you'd have been better off suggesting all the thousands on saint's relics out there, but whatever. Personally I never have gone with worshipping the cross so have no idea what exactly you're on about.
I've not seen many examples of this. The cross is symbolic of the sacrifice Jesus made to save all of mankind. So worshipping the cross, in and of itself, is idoltry - but Christians do not worship the cross. They worship that which the cross reminds them of (Jesus --> God) and are greatful for what it represents (their salvation).
Quote:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
If you're talking about Catholics then there is a definite aspect of Idolatry (actually having Jesus on the Cross, satues of Mary etc), but Catholics by no stretch of the imagination represent all Christians; infact that is (as I understand it) part of the reason the Protestant sect formed. Now if you're talking about the cross most non-Catholic Christians use then you're not talking about an Idol (that is a representation of a person or being in statue form), but you're talking about a symbol, and AFAIK there is nothing the bible which states that symbols are wrong...

Kali_Ava wrote:
Vass wrote:
Quote:
Heathen - we do all know that the christmas tree comes from the druidic religions right? and that almost everything else comes from Greco-Roman and Scandanavian cultures (the goddess Hel became Hell, etc)?

dictionary.com wrote:
Heathen - 1. a. One who adheres to the religion of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.
b. Such persons considered as a group; the unconverted.

2. a. One who is regarded as irreligious, uncivilized, or unenlightened.
b. Such persons considered as a group.

Heathen is a rather useless word in that context, but I get what you mean. As far as I'm concerned, the early Christians made a smart move in co-opting deities and religious observances from other religions. It makes it easier for the religion to acquire converts if they can go on with the same celebrations as before. Hinduism has done it as well. Islam, not as much.
The heathen thing made me laugh. Christians are not heathens by definition. They are the ones who call pagans heathens <i>beacause</i> they are not monothiestic, as a form of derogatory name-calling. Like someone calling a male homosexual a faggot to try and make the guy feel bad.
Exactly.

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 Post subject: Re: End crappy thread alert
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:27 pm 
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ptlis wrote:
Kali_Ava wrote:
Vass wrote:
Proin Drakenzol wrote:
Polytheistic - the trinity thing
It's actually a three in one deity and all are technically considered to be one being. Or that's my vague recollection.
The saints and Mary are considered as intermediaries along with all the other angels.
As far as I knew, all three were one being. Three different incarnations, but all the same being. It was more a symbolism thing - God the Creator, God the Saviour, God the Preserver. Or something. I don't know, it's been about three years since I went to church (and four since I was a Christian). Anyone practicing, feel free to correct me.
You're close, but not there. The Holy Trinity is probably closest to aspects of God's personality than anything:
  • The Father: God as the creator of everything, and caring for all of his creations.
  • The Son: God on Earth in the form of Jesus; he has all the powers of God but is flawed like humans and as such Jesus is more approachable to some.
  • The Holy Ghost: This name is misleading and is not reffering to, as many non-Christians believe, to a ghost in the traditional sense. It is better to think of it as The Holy Spirit; this is the aspect of God that Christians believe is in all of us.


I know. That's the basics of the basics. Thanks for clarifying that though. I figured everyone knew what I was talking about, so I could go in deeper. Yes, God the Father is the creator of all things, the earth, the mood, the haevenly night sky. Easily, you could understand why I dubbed him the creator. But, as far as I was told, Jesus was born a <b>perfect</b> man. He was the physical incarnation of God, and was born to save us from our sins. He preached the Word to all of the Jews (recorded by the four Gospels) and had twelve disciples. Judas betrayed him, and Jesus was tried as a heretic (if I remember correctly) - but Jesus knew that all of this was going to happen. He was hung on the cross and died on Friday, saying that he would forgive everyone for persecuting him now. God did some awesome (literally) things at the moment of death. Then Jesus was resurrected that Sunday, and ascended to God's right hand. He was the Savior for us, because we were imperfect. I don't know as much about the Holy Spirit. I thought it was the bit of God in us. Which preserves our soul and our faith. The Preserver.

That's what I meant. It was explained to me in a sermon for the children (because I sang at those services). But again, that was a while ago. Yay episcopal churches!

ptlis wrote:
Kali_Ava wrote:
And... as far as I know, they are a trinity, because a trinity is a symbol of massive power. Lies in old pagan symbolism... etc.
Quote:
It represents divinity, the soul of the world, the spirit of man. It is meditation, atonement, completeness--beginning, middle and end. Three represents... control and authority over others[.]
This may or may not be true, it is indeed fact that early Christians took many holidays and ideas from paganism, so the potential is there that The Holy Trinity was created for this purpose.


Er, I'm not sure of it's validity. I've heard it from several sources here and there. Mostly people who study paganism, but a couple of Christians, my Mom, I think, for one.

ptlis wrote:
Kali_Ava wrote:
Vass wrote:
Quote:
Idol worshipping - that cross dealy they pray to.
That's a sucky suggestion of idol worshipping, you'd have been better off suggesting all the thousands on saint's relics out there, but whatever. Personally I never have gone with worshipping the cross so have no idea what exactly you're on about.
I've not seen many examples of this. The cross is symbolic of the sacrifice Jesus made to save all of mankind. So worshipping the cross, in and of itself, is idoltry - but Christians do not worship the cross. They worship that which the cross reminds them of (Jesus --> God) and are greatful for what it represents (their salvation).
Quote:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
If you're talking about Catholics then there is a definite aspect of Idolatry (actually having Jesus on the Cross, satues of Mary etc), but Catholics by no stretch of the imagination represent all Christians; infact that is (as I understand it) part of the reason the Protestant sect formed. Now if you're talking about the cross most non-Catholic Christians use then you're not talking about an Idol (that is a representation of a person or being in statue form), but you're talking about a symbol, and AFAIK there is nothing the bible which states that symbols are wrong...


Protestant Church... I was Episcopalian... so that's all I know...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:32 pm 
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Idol ! = bad.

Idol which draws worship from the Lord = Bad.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:38 pm 
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Kali_Ava wrote:
But, as far as I was told, Jesus was born a <b>perfect</b> man. He was the physical incarnation of God, and was born to save us from our sins.

IIRC different sects of Christianity believe slightly different things. My father was Catholic so likely my understanding of it is the Catholic one...
Ezelek wrote:
Idol ! = bad.

Idol which draws worship from the Lord = Bad.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that >_>

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:40 pm 
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sorry, sorry, wasn't quite awake when I made the post. Please replace all instances of the word heathen with the word pagan.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:43 pm 
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Proin Drakenzol wrote:
sorry, sorry, wasn't quite awake when I made the post. Please replace all instances of the word heathen with the word pagan.


XD Same dilema

Quote:
Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Definition: \Pa"gan\ (p[=a]"gan), n. [L. paganus a countryman,
peasant, villager, a pagan, fr. paganus of or pertaining to
the country, rustic, also, pagan, fr. pagus a district,
canton, the country, perh. orig., a district with fixed
boundaries: cf. pangere to fasten. Cf. {Painim}, {Peasant},
and {Pact}, also {Heathen}.]
One who worships false gods; an idolater; a heathen; one who
is neither a Christian, a Mohammedan, nor a Jew.



And I think it's Idoltry that has the negative connotations. Or maybe it's just that Christians use Icons, not Idols. Or something. I dunno. Christians are crazy.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:50 pm 
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yes, but if you believe that Jesus was not, in fact, the son of G-d then the fact that Christians worship him (even as an aspect of G-d) means they are pagans.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:56 pm 
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Proin Drakenzol wrote:
yes, but if you believe that Jesus was not, in fact, the son of G-d then the fact that Christians worship him (even as an aspect of G-d) means they are pagans.

You really are stupid, aren't you? You can say that about any monotheistic religion and it would be true "If you believe mohammed wasn't a real prophet...".

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:13 pm 
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ptlis wrote:
Proin Drakenzol wrote:
yes, but if you believe that Jesus was not, in fact, the son of G-d then the fact that Christians worship him (even as an aspect of G-d) means they are pagans.

You really are stupid, aren't you? You can say that about any monotheistic religion and it would be true "If you believe mohammed wasn't a real prophet...".

If you believe Mohammaed wasn't a real profit it doesn't change the fact that Allah is a single all-powerful being. However the Christian religion is based on what amounts to three gods. I'm saying that if you accept that the "Father" aspect (which is closest to the Jewish G-d and Muslim Allah in nature) exists (which is a topic for another debate) then all one must do is question the belief in the other two aspects.

Essentialy: Let us assume (rightly or wrongly) that there is one supreme being. As it says in the shema "Hear O Israel the Lord our G-d, the Lord is one."

now the Christians believe that there are three parts to this one G-d. if Jesus is not the son of G-d the entire religion falls apart, but only that religion. It means the Christian G-d doesn't exist. However, even if Mohammed was a charltan it doesn't mean Allah doesn't exist, Allah's existance is independant of Mohammed. that is the difference.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:14 pm 
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I have little to offer here (other then to say that the creator of this topic is very poorly educated on the topic of Christianity.) I would, however, like to add that saying "G-d" is neither cute nor smart and you should probably knock it the hell off.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:18 pm 
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cheberet wrote:
I have little to offer here (other then to say that the creator of this topic is very poorly educated on the topic of Christianity.) I would, however, like to add that saying "G-d" is neither cute nor smart and you should probably knock it the hell off.

sorry, but fuck you. using "G-d" when refering to hashem is like using hashem, it's a point of faith and respect. I'm not trying to be "cute." So again fuck you.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:23 pm 
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cheberet wrote:
I have little to offer here (other then to say that the creator of this topic is very poorly educated on the topic of Christianity.) I would, however, like to add that saying "G-d" is neither cute nor smart and you should probably knock it the hell off.

...or it might be against his religion to say or write the word God (IIRC this is Islam, right?).

Also Prion that might have been a bad example but the point still stands. If you say that a montheistic religion's God does not exist then they cease to be montheistic, hence they are pagans/heathens by their own definition...

Debating the validity of a specific religion or religions never achieves anything of real value because generally the person(s) arguing only have an in-depth understaning of one religion (their own) and as such the discussion gets bogged down with semantics rather than real debate. I suggest we let this thread die the death it deserves and move onto less stupid topics.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:26 pm 
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Proin Drakenzol wrote:
yes, but if you believe that Jesus was not, in fact, the son of G-d then the fact that Christians worship him (even as an aspect of G-d) means they are pagans.


Well, Christianity was one of those weird cults of Judaism until it became religion of the Roman Empire. (Yay politics!) However, Christians still believe int he same God as Jews, they just happen to believe that God incarnated himself as Jesus. They worship Jesus <b>as a part of the same GOD</b>. Yeesh, how hard is that to understand? He's NOT a separate entity in Christianity, therefore, it can't be paganism if you're still worshipping the same God.

You didn't seem to comprehend what the definition of "pagan" means. It's right there for you. Look up. Anyone who doesn't believe in that God.

Are you scouting for fundamentalists? Or are you just trying to shove your opinion on everyone else, and therefore creating drama. If you don't knock it off, I'll make you my religious bitch, I swear it. *shakes the warning fist*

<b>Edit:</b> Sorry, I was typing this up whilst you posted.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:31 pm 
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don't know 'bout Islam but I know it's a Jewish thing.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:41 pm 
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Christianity has an issue with the trinity for a number of reasons.

First and foremost, the books where written by different authors. Some of these authors lived at the same time. Some did not. Some read the books of others, and once again, some did not. This is where confusion sets in.

If one gets a bible with literal translations, one should notice that the primary diety is referred to by two different names, Yahweh and Elohim. YHWH is considered the literal name, and Elohim just as meaning 'Lord', but this is caused by the authors not being in conjunction.

So we have two gods already - a creator and a god lording over the world. There isn't anything that directly ties the two together.

Then, toss in books about a messiah that the author never met, and you get some confusion.

You now have three gods - A creator, a watcher, and a savior.

Well, after compiling the complete bible, as they saw fit, from the old, new, and rabbinical studies, the major religious groups still had the issue of how Christianity could stick to its own doctrine that there was only one god when they had three different distinct personas to represent it.

After meeting in Nicene, the council came up with a man-made definition to govern the three, and combined them into one godhead.

So putz describing them as personalities is mostly correct, as the thoughts of man have laid out.

Note also, that it was not just the Catholics who were involved in the Nicene Creed, but many protestant groups, including the Anglicans, and other groups like the Eastern Orthodox Church. Its pretty much accepted by all Christian groups anymore.


More Nicene info at <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed">Wikipedia</a>.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:43 pm 
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And to answer posts posted while I was posting:

It is technically taboo to say the name of god in any judeo/christian religion.

Allah simply means lord, after all.

The Jehovah witnesses don't feel so much that it is, but they're strange fellows anyways, and sadly, probably some of the most true to the text Christians in existance.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:47 pm 
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Ah, okay, I wasn't aware of that, mainly because I've never heard anyone say (or type) "God" like that. I apologize.

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