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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:36 am 
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KirimaNagi wrote:
IcyMonkey wrote:
KirimaNagi wrote:
"The universe rewards us for understanding it and punishes us for not understanding it. When we understand the universe, our plans work and we feel good. Conversely, if we try to fly by jumping off a cliff and flapping our arms, the universe will kill us."
- Jack Cohen and Ian Stewart


There's absolutely no proof of this.


Then I challenge you to jump off a cliff and flap your arms.


See, if I do that, I'll die. That has nothing to do with "understanding the universe". It has to do with understanding how certain volitions (in this case the choice to jump off a cliff), when acted upon, result in certain experiences (in this case, death, or at least extreme pain).


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:16 pm 
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IcyMonkey wrote:
KirimaNagi wrote:
IcyMonkey wrote:
KirimaNagi wrote:
"The universe rewards us for understanding it and punishes us for not understanding it. When we understand the universe, our plans work and we feel good. Conversely, if we try to fly by jumping off a cliff and flapping our arms, the universe will kill us."
- Jack Cohen and Ian Stewart


There's absolutely no proof of this.


Then I challenge you to jump off a cliff and flap your arms.


See, if I do that, I'll die. That has nothing to do with "understanding the universe". It has to do with understanding how certain volitions (in this case the choice to jump off a cliff), when acted upon, result in certain experiences (in this case, death, or at least extreme pain).
How is an understanding of the results of acting on your volitions not an increment of understanding of the universe? Your volitions, actions, and the results of acting on your volitions are all encompassed by the universe.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:34 pm 
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The statement says nothing about the height of the cliff, if the arms are attached to a hangglider, or if Jack Cohen and Ian Stewart were not already dead at the time they jumped off the cliff.

It's only actually true because the reader makes certain assumptions about the state of the universe and comes to a possibly wrong "logical" conclusion.

Oddly, by virtue of being a bad example, this proves that the universe rewards us for understanding it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:40 pm 
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Ylis wrote:
The statement says nothing about the height of the cliff, if the arms are attached to a hangglider, or if Jack Cohen and Ian Stewart were not already dead at the time they jumped off the cliff.

It's only actually true because the reader makes certain assumptions about the state of the universe and comes to a possibly wrong "logical" conclusion.

Oddly, by virtue of being a bad example, this proves that the universe rewards us for understanding it.


Actually, no.
"Cliff" by nature of definition implies a considerable height, commonly accepted as high enough to be fatal.
"Try to fly by jumping off a cliff and flapping our arms" clearly means *without other aids*, and a dead person is unable jump and flap their arms with the intention of trying to fly.

And as for IcyMonkey,
"The universe" clearly refers to "the world around us" or "the world we live in," and the quote is a statement about causality or consequences of actions. Your statement that "See, if I do that, I'll die." clearly shows that you understand how that portion of your "universe" works, and that you choose to avoid it for reasons of survival, thus validating the statement.

The quote stands.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:02 am 
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Emy wrote:
How is an understanding of the results of acting on your volitions not an increment of understanding of the universe? Your volitions, actions, and the results of acting on your volitions are all encompassed by the universe.


Well, yes, technically this is true. However, I'm not actually understanding the results of my action per se, I'm simply understanding the way my mind interprets the results of my actions. I know that if I act upon a certain volition, I will experience certain sensations. My basic point is that all understanding is confined to understanding of the self and how one's own mind works; knowledge beyond that is impossible. All we have to work with are our own thoughts and sensations, and all we have to analyze is how our mind organizes and interprets these sensations. In some ways, science (and maybe even logic itself) could be considered a specialized subset of psychology.

At any rate, it's not a question of actual understanding. We start with a bunch of "if->then" statements taken from experience, and generalize these into intellectual models. The models themselves are simply shorthand ways of conceptualizing a group of related "if->then" statements, some of which we can then test to further validate the model. At no point does "reality" ever enter the picture. I think the only way we'd be able to effectively salvage the concept of "truth" is if we simply consider it a synonym for "model that is effective", leaving out any mention of ultimately nonsensical concepts like "reality" and "objectivity".


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:43 am 
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KirimaNagi wrote:
"The universe rewards us for understanding it and punishes us for not understanding it. When we understand the universe, our plans work and we feel good. Conversely, if we try to fly by jumping off a cliff and flapping our arms, the universe will kill us."
- Jack Cohen and Ian Stewart

I like this quote.
And 'understanding the universe' is just, when translated to the basics, connecting causes and effects. The action of 'jumping from a cliff unaided'(the cause) connects with 'death of the jumper' (the effect).

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:13 am 
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IcyMonkey wrote:
I know that if I act upon a certain volition, I will experience certain sensations.
Except that, by your own admission, you have not tested your hypothesis in this case. So your are making assumptions based on your knowledge of how the universe has worked in the past.

A lack of perfect knowlwdge is not a complete lack of knowledge. In this example, for instance, we lack knowledge of the effects of death on the mind of the deceased, but we are well aware of the effects of death on the body of the deceased, and we have a general understanding of the effects of death on the minds of people other than the deceased.
IcyMonkey wrote:
We start with a bunch of "if->then" statements taken from experience, and generalize these into intellectual models. The models themselves are simply shorthand ways of conceptualizing a group of related "if->then" statements, some of which we can then test to further validate the model.
How do you define understanding, if you disagree with the definition of understanding of as the building of models which accurately predict effects from causes?

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