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 Post subject: Video Game Violence
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:01 am 
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I do not support censorship. I support the right of parents to decide what kinds of material their children can be exposed to, and therefore strongly support the ESRB rating system. But I will never condone outright censorship. The first ammendment is ironclad about that.

This is my position in all cases. However, there's one thing I just can't shake. Whenever I make this argument, there's always a small part of me that says: Yes, this is right, but, do we really NEED to make games where you can use innocent bystanders as human shields against the police?

Basically what I mean is, though we should be allowed to have a certain freedom, does that neccassarily mean that we must exercise it? Just because the constitution grants us the right to make the filthiest, most violent, offensive, disrespectful piece of media ever doesn't mean we have to do it, right? Isn't it enough that we have this freedom, and don't need to go parading it around where it will surely attract the ire of certain elements of society?

For example, we, in a democracy, have the right to revolt when we feel the government is out of line. However, we don't revolt every time we feel the government isn't quite up to snuff. We use the political process (this might not be the best example, but it works).

Wouldn't a little more discretion on the part of developers be in order?

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 Post subject: And we shan't even make mention of Battle Raper...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:03 am 
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Vaergoth wrote:
Yes, this is right, but, do we really NEED to make games where you can use innocent bystanders as human shields against the police?

No, just as you don't need to purchase it. If I had kids below a certain age, I certainly wouldn't let them play it.

Incidentally, Manhunt would have probably made a better example for an Ebil™ game that didn't have to be made. Still, as long as you are not somehow forced to play it, I regard the content as irrelevant (for adults, at least. Arguments can be made for actual legal as opposed to voluntary restriction of selling M-rated games to minors).

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Last edited by Wandering Idiot on Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Video Game Violence
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:30 am 
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Vaergoth wrote:
I do not support censorship. I support the right of parents to decide what kinds of material their children can be exposed to, and therefore strongly support the ESRB rating system. But I will never condone outright censorship. The first ammendment is ironclad about that.

This is my position in all cases.


There are actually a few exceptions to the right of free speech as provided in the 1st Amendment, one of which is incitement. If the game in question is actively inciting peo ple to commit crimes, then its manufacture and/or distribution would be considered a criminal act that would not be protected. If, however, the game simply provides a setting without active incitement, then no matter how violent or offensive it may be to some people, I think it would be difficult to censor from a strictly constitutional viewpoint.

O

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:38 pm 
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it just seems like the biggest portion of the violent video game debate comes from people who are just out to pass the buck for raising their children. 'Well my little Johnny is a mean spirited stupid little turd because of all those violent videogames he plays that I bought him to play while I ignore him between boughts of yelling at him.'

I just know that I'm not letting my hypothetical kid have a computer or console in his room untill he's 18.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:54 pm 
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I was trying to be as reasoned as possible in my post. Brian over at 8-Bit Theatre has a newspost (below comic) that's more in line with my usual response when the subject comes up. He's quite reasonable when not in the middle of a post-election haze of bitter vitriol ;) He also links to a news story containing near-critical levels of retardation* from multiple fronts. I couldn't even finish it lest I have blood pressure problems for the rest of the week, and I'm 23.

* Which of course, were it any more concentrated, would result in a chain-reaction explosion of stupidity that would wipe out all forms of rational thought and leave the population of Earth running repeatedly into walls wondering why the air is so hard.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:30 pm 
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The video card I have right now is about two years old and costs today about $Au235.

When I was a kid I got $2 a week in pocket money from my parents.
$52 went into my bank account at the end of the year and $1 was given to me every week.
As a result I didn't get a decent computer until 2000 after I got a job and saved for a year, (it was a kick-ass compy if you ignore the Motherboard which died on me).

It would have taken me 2 years to buy a low end video card if I didn't spend a cent and then another year just to get 1 game to play on it when I was a kid.

There is no way that parents today can excuse themselves from responsibility for their children playing violent computer and video games. Gamming costs money, even pirated games require a decent internet connection which isn't always cheap.

No child can afford it so the illusion that parents somehow are out of the loop if a falicy. They are the ones that give little Billy $50 to go buy Blood-Guy 4 and that I should suffer because some little snot eating condom-tear decided to re-enact Manhunt annoys me a lot.

The majority of gamers are 20+ anywaay, thats the other thing that shits me.

Actor.

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 Post subject: Damn those holographic neural-active simulations! It's the government's fault for allowing me to buy little Jimmy the MatrixJack™ 3000 Virtual Reality System, and the complete series of Bloodfist: The Gushening™ games in the first place!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:55 pm 
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actor_au wrote:
The majority of gamers are 20+ anyway, thats the other thing that shits me.

Yes, politicians do tend to act as though all gamers are under the age of 14. They've done the same thing with comic books in the past. The sad part is, I'm not always sure if it's out of intentional disingenuousness or outright ignorance. Although given that adults have been playing games since the days of Pong, I'm tempted to lean towards the former.

This nonsense will be mostly over once the current generation comes into political power, mark my words. Of course, then they'll just find some new medium to designate the Official Threat to Our Children.

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Last edited by Wandering Idiot on Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:47 pm 
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The authors right to publish the game is the same as my right to protest the publication. You can't have one without the other.

My wife and I decided that the kids are not allowed to have TV or computers in thier rooms. The primary reason is that we want to monitor when and what they do online. I know what websites my son goes to regularly, what games he plays, and when he plays them.

I'm still not 100% sure if that sniper headshot he got me with in UT2k4 was a fluke or actual skill.

In my opinion, its irresponsible for me to shelter him from media violence. If not game/fictional, then real life violence on the news is always there. Stuff happens, and he should know about it. If I don't tell him that something is wrong, how else is he supposed to know? The problem isn't the media violence - its a lack of parental guidance.

It's my responsibility as a parent to teach my child the difference between fact and fiction. It's also my responsibility to teach my child conflict/anger management. The media exposure is just a teaching tool.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:36 pm 
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The fact that I disagree with Varegoth so often reafirms my faith in myself as a person.

No. Cencorship is wrong. Disagreeing, on the other hand, is perfectly cool. When it's published, bitch openly. Scream the new evils this game announce.

Just keep it away from my system, while I'm playing.

If a kid gets ahold of a game like this, then it's the owner's fault for being an oblivious dip. But that's in the same way as porn. If today, Billy gets in shit at school for describing a highly detailed lesbian orgy, and last night, he was in 'Daddy's private box', then's Daddy's fucking fault.

And frankly, face it. The majority of us are evil. I'm evil. Fuck goddamn, I'm evil. The attitude, language, conflicting mindset... I'm not on the hero team. And damnit, one of my favorite things about GTA:SA is walking in the middle of a crowded street and tearing open necks.

I'm not going to blame Rockstar games for my liking to rip a pixel apart. I'm not going to tell'em not to show the angry bits, or remove the whores. I'm not going to stop playing 'cause I disagree with the heavy moral and ethnic issus.

I'm not going to go out to the street and slit people's throats. I'm not going to pick up a crack/coke/heroine addiction, and am not going to kill cops 'cause of my habit, or kill dealers for being in my neighbourhood (even though they always carry $2000).

What I am going to do is keep the fucking game away from my little fucking sister. She doesn't need that shit.

Doesn't mean that I don't.

-Kitty

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:32 pm 
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That wasn't really my point, H-Kat. My point was that with some games, it seems like the developer is daring the government to try and censor them. "Try and stop us" mentality.

Did Postal 2 really need a "pee anywhere, anytime" feature? Did Postal 2 even need to exist?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:51 pm 
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They need to exist because someone wanted them to exist.

It doesn't matter if they draw attention to themselves.

Goth kids slit their own wrists.

People can do whatever they fucking want. If they don't deliberately impeed on another's good time.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:16 pm 
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It seems that most of us here follow roughly the same beliefs on this issue, mainly that it's an issue of people actually listening to the ratings systems imposed.

As some of you may know, but most of you probably don't, I'm fairly active in the NZ game developement arena, mostly as an observer, and ocassionally, when not working my ass of at uni, as a participant. And frankly, this is one of the major issues of discussion. We had an excellent conference last year, part of which was a discussion with NZ's Chief Censor, and his opinions on video games, and how they're rated (this was just after Manhunt got banned in NZ). The censor actually came off as being very reasonable about the whole thing. His perspective was that he didn't mind violent videogames, as long as they had some, however minor, redeeming aspects. Manhunt had none. Which is fair enough. Anf keep in mind that this guy is probably as jaded as this entire forum combined, as his job consists mostly of helping the police with the fucked up stuff they find on people computers. But the crux of the discussion eventually came down to this:

Video games are rated just like most other media (in fact often more harshly as there is interaction as opposed to merely passivity).

The issue is that people are getting their hands on these games when they shouldn't, and this is because the public view video games as a medium for kids, and only for kids. And frankly that needs to change. It's the same problem that you find with animation and comics. People automatically assume that all of these are kid friendly when they're not. I'm not going to give little Billy a copy of Sin City to read, nor Legend of the Demon Womb to watch, nor GTA3 to play (see here.) It's a matter of getting the public to realise that they need to have a say in what their kids play and buy. The money has to come from somewhere, and unless your kid is a watchdog for the local crack dealer, I don't think he can afford many games on his own. Use a bit of Goddamn common sense people. If you wouldn't let him (or her) watch an R rated movie, then why the hell are you letting them play an R rated game?

Also, however, there needs to be better enforcement at the retailer level. Retailers have no problems selling these games to underagers most of the time, and they of all people know what they're selling. It should also be up to them to tell customers that what they're buying might be grossly innapropriate for the person they're getting it for. Especially grandparents, because they have no fucking clue whatsoever.

Finally, I would just like to finish with this. There is a man, employed by the NZ censors, to play games for hours a day, while the censors watch. He explores and tries to find bloody and naughty bits. And that's all he does. And he gets paid.

I want his job.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:50 am 
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Try to take away my violent video games, and I'll shoot you dead!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 10:10 pm 
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I'm confused by the question. Well, actually, I don't think there is a question. V states that he is in favour of free press, but feels rotten when he see's people abuse it.

There are people who 'abuse' it. There always has been. They publish the nastiest, smuttiest, most socially inapropriate content they can. Because they can. Yes, society doesn't like it, but this is the utmost of slipery slopes. Because the level of smut these people put out is directly tied to the amount we want to allow. I am sure that if a game made by rockstar games doesn't face legal challenges and a possible recall, they consider it a failure. Some people enjoy socially taboo material, on acount of it being taboo. The people who publish this content will push the envelope, no matter where you draw the line (mixing metaphors :( )
What I mean is, there will always be people who make content that is beyond what society feels is acceptable, but still within legal limits.

The only way to curve this, is to make it illegal to publish something that is societally unacceptable. Which most people would agree is worse than the alternative.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:03 am 
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Re: bigmacd's post. Go watch Visitor Q. It is quite possibly the most horrific, most repulsive thing I have ever seen, but at the end, it all works out in a strangely beautiful (and weirdly inspiring) way.

Also, if you're planning on conveying some sort of message in a piece of art, doing something that many consider offensive is by far the best way to grab their attention.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:23 pm 
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The Señor wrote:
Re: bigmacd's post. Go watch Visitor Q. It is quite possibly the most horrific, most repulsive thing I have ever seen, but at the end, it all works out in a strangely beautiful (and weirdly inspiring) way.

Also, if you're planning on conveying some sort of message in a piece of art, doing something that many consider offensive is by far the best way to grab their attention.


That's what I was trying to get at. Art sometimes needs to be offensive to society. It's just that there will be people out there who take advantage of societies lieniance.

It's better to have shitty, offensive art, then no art at all.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:33 pm 
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I think the whole concept of "Abuse of Free Press" simply doesn't exist as far as the videogame industry is concerned. Much more so than even making porn or writing a nasty book, videogames require a tremendous amount of money to make.

At the very least, you have the coders and the graphics artists, probably working for over a year. You could probably swing it so that the voice "acting" was done by people already currently employed by you, but there are a few other things that need to have people hired to do. So, tons of money.

People wouldn't spend tons of money making "Naked Pirate Chick: Cop Killer EXTREME!!!!" unless they could be reasonably be sure they could make their money back with sales. Or even take a narrow loss.

If the game flops, they won't make another one. They probably wouldn't be able to afford to make another one, even if the next game was different and not 'risque.'

So ... no free press. You only have supply and demand. Society, or, at least, enough of society to matter, must be demanding the porno-extreme shoot'em ups or they wouldn't be made. So don't give me this crap about "Society might not like it..." Say "The loud mother-fuckers in the news don't like it, but most people don't seem to care one way or another."

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:34 am 
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Herbal Enema wrote:
I think the whole concept of "Abuse of Free Press" simply doesn't exist as far as the videogame industry is concerned. Much more so than even making porn or writing a nasty book, videogames require a tremendous amount of money to make.

At the very least, you have the coders and the graphics artists, probably working for over a year. You could probably swing it so that the voice "acting" was done by people already currently employed by you, but there are a few other things that need to have people hired to do. So, tons of money.

People wouldn't spend tons of money making "Naked Pirate Chick: Cop Killer EXTREME!!!!" unless they could be reasonably be sure they could make their money back with sales. Or even take a narrow loss.

If the game flops, they won't make another one. They probably wouldn't be able to afford to make another one, even if the next game was different and not 'risque.'

So ... no free press. You only have supply and demand. Society, or, at least, enough of society to matter, must be demanding the porno-extreme shoot'em ups or they wouldn't be made. So don't give me this crap about "Society might not like it..." Say "The loud mother-fuckers in the news don't like it, but most people don't seem to care one way or another."


Actually, only about 1 game in 3 turns a profit. The industry is in a pretty bad state as we speak. Most games that sell well are either franchises or sequels. The amount of time and money required to make a game for the next generation of consoles is somewhere in the region of 5 times what it is at present. Due to this, even fewer original games are going to get made, as publishers won't be willing to invest in what won't make them a profit. That, and the big companies will continue to make the vast majority of the games.

It sucks to be a small independent game developer these days.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:01 am 
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Vaergoth wrote:
Did Postal 2 really need a "pee anywhere, anytime" feature? Did Postal 2 even need to exist?


Postal 2 was created more or less to make a political statement (a very entertaining one). If you read the disclaimer when you start it, it makes sence. Obviously, the developers want to encourage parental discretion instead of government intervention. Otherwise Video Games will turn into the movie industry, as they will want to appeal to the American Mainstream instead of a collection of niche markets. Notice how neither Politicians or the media have bothered to attack it, despite it being far more gratuitous than Manhunt?

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 Post subject: You know what was an awesome movie that probably would have been picked on for a suicidal message if it had been popular? Harold and Maude.[/pimp]
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:11 pm 
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themadthinker wrote:
It sucks to be a small independent game developer these days.


I'm hopeful, what with Steam. For instance, SiN Episodes. Circumventing traditional shop-bound boxes is nice.

Herbal Enema wrote:
So ... no free press. You only have supply and demand.

Oh, science, why must you be so dismal?

For something on-topic:
Has the rise of video games spawned a generation of killers? Well, have violent crimes increased significantly at the same time? No, not really. If anything, I believe, the reverse. Even <i><a href="http://www.economist.com/">The Economist</a></i> has mentioned this. Obviously, proving a correlation - much less a causal relationship - between the two seems difficult to rationally conclude.

Wandering Idiot wrote:
This nonsense will be mostly over once the current generation comes into political power, mark my words. Of course, then they'll just find some new medium to designate the Official Threat to Our Children.

Pretty much.

My question is, why does violence appeal so much? Sure, for most FPS games there's the element of fast-twitch response, strategy and skill (though often the former moreso than the latter two). But some games - and more importantly, some players - take a positive delight in occasions of sadistic, malevolent, mass slaughter. Is it because it is a release of repressed emotions? An exploration of novel feelings in ways that carry little negative repurcussions (like jail time), like an emotional/adrenal trip? Do most people just simply delight in violence, and hide it for the sake of polite society and interaction with other people?


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