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 Post subject: Judge Bars 'Intelligent Design' From Pa. Classes
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:48 pm 
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Interesting, no? I figured it was worth a mention. I myself have never cared for 'Intelligent Design' to much on the grounds of it's a conpromise with Science's explanations, and compromise is what you do when you can't get your way. But, then again, is it right to force a cosmology, even a scientific cosmology, on someone? It is a mandatory class (or was for me) so it's not a choice. Plus, how essential is evolution to the study of how your body works? Evolution is a purely theoretical field of science, so I doubt it will ever lead to a groundbraking invention. You won't learn how to build a skyscraper from Byzantine History, but some still find it facinating.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:36 pm 
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From what I understand, they weren't saying that Intelligent Design was the be-all and end-all of things that hadn't been explained by science. They were saying that it was just another theory. I figure, hey, as long as you don't try to force someone to believe in this Intelligent Design theory, then hey, feel free to mention it, discuss it, or point out where it could be used. Although, this will bring up, why the theories currently taught in class are any better (besides the fact that they are the most widely used...) than any other, but that isn't my point.
I just think its hilarious that this priest on TV was saying that God has forsaken the town because they banned the Intelligent Design theory and that they shouldn't go looking to God for help anymore. Isn't he going against what they profess to their believers? That just cracked me up.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:02 pm 
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Haha.

It's remarkable how little both of you know about biology. And I don't even know that much. Hell, it's remarkable how little both of you know about science or even reasoning in general.

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But, then again, is it right to force a cosmology, even a scientific cosmology, on someone?

Believe it or not, some things are correct and other things are not. Macroevolution in its broadest form (punctuated equilibrium that relies on natural selection to direct speciation) is one of those correct things. That's the problem with intelligent design--it IS creationism wrapped up in fancy terms that don't make sense after a second glance like irreducible complexity in an attempt to subvert secular elements of society. There is no disagreement among scientists (no serious one--it's about the same as the split between scientists that think that cold fusion is impossible and those who think it can be done).

Also, Gray, look up the word "theory" in a scientific context, you goddamn idiot. Why do I have these conversations anymore? Why do people think "THEORY IN SCIENCE MUST EQUAL WHAT GRISSOM MEANS ON CSI"?

PS--I've never met a smart person who liked CSI.

Or hey, would you like some logic? SPOT THE INSANITY.

1. Scientific theories can be wrong at least in part. A
2. Evolution is a scientific theory. A
3. Evolution can be wrong at least in part. 1,2 modus ponens ponendo
4. Intelligent design is a scientific theory on equal footing to evolution. ???

There! Did you catch it? It's subtle, but if you try hard enough, you can see it.

More things because these two posts infuriate me:

One of the requirements for a scientific theory is that it can be falsified--that is, it can be proven wrong. How can you prove there is no grand designer? Hint: you can't. You can discover all the mechanisms for any process and you still don't know if there is a designer that you can't detect. This is not a scientific question; it is a philosophical one. Why, then, should intelligent design be taught in a classroom under the guise of a scientific theory? By any reasonable definition of a scientific theory, it is not one. It believes that current ignorance must be perpetuated and therefore what we do not understand is the result of a supernatural being. It is symptomatic of the growing fundamentalist movement in this country.

So basically, Americans are just really stupid and somebody needs to save them from themselves.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:17 pm 
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@_@ wrote:
There is no disagreement among scientists.


Well now, if scientists say it's true, then it must be! You can't question question scientists, they work for Science!

Replace scientists with clergy, and Science with God, and you got the same argument that the people your bashing are using.

But hey, believe who you want to believe, just don't look down on me for believing someone else.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:21 pm 
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Oh, I wasn't aware the clergy relied upon the scientific method and looked for falsifiability, replicability, and requirements such as those. Oh wait, they don't--they rely on faith. Let's see... macroevolution relies on the scientific method, intelligent design relies on faith... Clearly, they are identical.

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But hey, believe who you want to believe, just don't look down on me for believing someone else.

Should I look down on you for believing the moon is made of cheese, then? How about there are no such thing as stars or space, just glass spheres revolving around the earth? Am I allowed to if you tell me the Earth is flat?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:25 pm 
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*grins*
Hmm...
Actually, I've only watched CSI once...and I thought it was rather stupid, yet amusing in its own right (Sure, I'm proving you're opinion that only stupid people like CSI, but I was looking at it from an artistic point-of-view...RETARDED COLORS AND CAMERA ANGLE GALORE!!! WHEEEE...er...anyway...)
Of course, this is all coming from a 19 year-old who mainly got C's in his science classes in High School and has been avoiding them feverently in college...so there.

Also, I'm not one to catch subtle remarks or points hidden in something else. But, basically, you're pointing out the flaws in my logic and reasoning and how I'm a complete retard...

But, I did not say that Intelligent Design was on the same level as the theory of evolution (I could be wrong, I mean hell, I write shit that I think means something else and people don't get what I mean...) Well, that isn't what I was trying to say. I was trying to point out that I don't see what's wrong with discussing other "theories" (or whatever the fuck you want to call them...personally I think the Intelligent Design theory completely moronic, but I was trying to see both sides here...) that are out there.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:30 pm 
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Grayswandir wrote:
But, I did not say that Intelligent Design was on the same level as the theory of evolution (I could be wrong, I mean hell, I write shit that I think means something else and people don't get what I mean...) Well, that isn't what I was trying to say. I was trying to point out that I don't see what's wrong with discussing other "theories" (or whatever the fuck you want to call them...personally I think the Intelligent Design theory completely moronic, but I was trying to see both sides here...) that are out there.

See, that's the rub. There aren't two sides to see. There is the thing--macroevolution--and there's something else which can only be applied in the same context if you have a theocracy. This isn't a matter of belief; it's not even a matter of science. One is science; the other is religion. That's the entire point of this.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:34 pm 
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@_@ wrote:
Should I look down on you for believing the moon is made of cheese, then? How about there are no such thing as stars or space, just glass spheres revolving around the earth? Am I allowed to if you tell me the Earth is flat?


All I am saying is that ultimately, it all depends on who you choose to believe, to put faith in. Have you ever been to the Moon? Have you ever done the Gold-foil experiment to show that atoms are mostly empty space? Have you ever looked at and compared the DNA of Humans and Chimps to come to the conclusion that they must be related? Unless you have, you're relying on faith that scientists aren't lying through their teeth. So, in the end, both your and my arguments both come down to that dirty, dirty word, faith, faith that who we choose to believe in is telling the truth. I'm not saying religion is scientific, or at least OUR scientific, quite the opposite really, I hate people who try to explain God through Human Science. But 500 years ago, if you said the Earth Revolved around the Sun, you would be laughed at as unscientific; Clearly, the Sun comes up in the East and goes down in the West, so it MUST revolve around us, that's Science.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:43 pm 
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Goblin King wrote:
@_@ wrote:
Should I look down on you for believing the moon is made of cheese, then? How about there are no such thing as stars or space, just glass spheres revolving around the earth? Am I allowed to if you tell me the Earth is flat?


All I am saying is that ultimately, it all depends on who you choose to believe, to put faith in. Have you ever been to the Moon? Have you ever done the Gold-foil experiment to show that atoms are mostly empty space? Have you ever looked at and compared the DNA of Humans and Chimps to come to the conclusion that they must be related? Unless you have, you're relying on faith that scientists aren't lying through their teeth. So, in the end, both your and my arguments both come down to that dirty, dirty word, faith, faith that who we choose to believe in is telling the truth. I'm not saying religion is scientific, or at least OUR scientific, quite the opposite really, I hate people who try to explain God through Human Science. But 500 years ago, if you said the Earth Revolved around the Sun, you would be laughed at as unscientific; Clearly, the Sun comes up in the East and goes down in the West, so it MUST revolve around us, that's Science.

Come on, that's sophistry and you know it. You're trying to argue that it's just the other minds problem, but let's take it one step further; how can I know that what I see exists? How can I be sure of any of my memories or experiences? I can't, but if I assume that my memories are at least mostly accurate, I find consistency in the world around me, and through the use of Occam's Razor, I can infer that the world around me exists. Belief? Sure, you could call it that. But when presented with consistent evidence for a certain phenomena, to deny that the phenomena can only be explained by supernatural forces and to assert that any explanation we could create through interpretation of that evidence is flawed is not just incorrect--it's insane.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:09 pm 
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@_@ wrote:
Goblin King wrote:
UR SCIENCE IS BROKE LAWLZ

HEY, you, get off my cloud
you don't know me and you don't know my style
who be gettin flam when they come to a jam?
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don't eat Skippy, Jif or Peter Pan
peanut butter, cuz I'm not butter
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band, I be Sam Sam I am
and I dont eat green eggs and ham
style will hit ya, wham!, then goddamn
you be like oh shit that's the jam
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i'm about to blow light me up
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wrap, with some of this and some of that
hold up (what?) I tawt I tat I putty tat
over there, but I think he best to beware
of the diggy dog shit right here
yippy yippy yay yippy yah yippy yo
like Deck said this aint your average flow
comin like rah ooh ah achie kah
tell me how ya like it so far baby paw
the poetry's in motion coast to coast and
rub it on your skin like lotion
what's the commotion, oh my lord
another corn chopped by the Wu-Tang sword
hey hey hey like Fat Albert
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it's the Method

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uhh
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all of the above oh yeah plus I do so
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doing average things with average hoes
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clip is loaded when I click bang dang
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J-U-M-P jump and I thump
make girls rumps like pump and Humpty Hump
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child, the whole damn isle is callin me
P-A-N-T-Y-R-A-I-D-E-R mad raw I don't cry
meaning no one can burn or toss and turn me
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now how many licks does it take
for me to hit the Tootsie Roll center of a break
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so to each and every crew
you're clear like glass I can see right through
you're whole damn posse be catchin em all cause you vic'd
and ya didnt have friends to begin with
I'm

M-E-T-H-O-D, MAN
M-E-T-H-O-D, MAN
M-E-T-H-O-D, MAN
M-E-T-H-O-D, MAN

here I am, here I am, the Method Man

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:53 pm 
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Hehehe.

How can you disprove creationism? Build a time machine.
How can you disprove macroevolution? Build a time machine.

Hmm... I wonder how one is more disprovable than the other?

And for the record, there are perfectly scientific creationist theories. The scientific method doesn't care where you get your hypotheses from, as long as you can test them. With macroevolution, that's not possible thanks to the vast stretches of time involved, with creationism, you would need to go back in time to see the world being made.

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:27 am 
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nick012000 wrote:
And for the record, there are perfectly scientific creationist theories.

No. There aren't. How many times must this be stated for people to understand that creationism is a fucking joke?

Even its proponents know it's a joke. Hence why their "theories" aren't sent to reputable journals for peer review. Because they know they'll just get laughed at.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:42 am 
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I got lost somewhere around "Jump, Magic Jump. Dance, Magic Dance."

Where does the part of man walking the earth with dinosaurs fit in with inteligent design theory? I know they both are creationist ideas and I'm all for it if I can see displays like this start popping up in museums.
Dinosaur and man together at last!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:03 am 
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Bill Hicks wrote:
Fundamentalist Christians who believe the Bible is the exact word of God, including that wacky fire and brimstone Revelations ending, have had their finger on the fucking button for 12 years. [Eyes roll back in head] "Tell me when Lord, tell me when. Let me be your servant Lord." Fundamentalist Christianity - fascinating. These people actually believe that the bi.., er, the world is 12 thousand years old. Swear to God. What the..? Based on what? I asked them. "Well we looked at all the people in the Bible and we added 'em up all the way back to Adam and Eve, their ages - 12 thousand years." Well how fucking scientific, okay. I didn't know that you'd gone to so much trouble. That's good. You believe the world's 12 thousand years old? "That's right." Okay I got one word to ask you, a one word question, ready? "uh huh." Dinosaurs. You know the world's 12 thousand years old and dinosaurs existed, they existed in that time, you'd think it would have been mentioned in the fucking Bible at some point. "And lo Jesus and the disciples walked to Nazareth. But the trail was blocked by a giant brontosaurus... with a splinter in his paw. And O the disciples did run a shriekin': 'What a big fucking lizard, Lord!' But Jesus was unafraid and he took the splinter from the brontosaurus's paw and the big lizard became his friend. And Jesus sent him to Scotland where he lived in a loch for O so many years inviting thousands of American tourists to bring their fat fucking families and their fat dollar bills. And oh Scotland did praise the Lord. Thank you Lord, thank you Lord. Thank you Lord."

Get this, I actually asked one of these guys, OK, Dinosaurs fossils - how does that fit into you scheme of life? Let me sit down and strap in. He said, "Dinosaur fossils? God put those there to test our faith." Thank God I'm strapped in right now here man. I think God put you here to test my faith, Dude. You believe that? "uh huh." Does that trouble anyone here? The idea that God.. might be.. fuckin' with our heads? I have trouble sleeping with that knowledge. Some prankster God running around: "Hu hu ho. We will see who believes in me now, ha ha." [mimes God burying fossils] "I am God, I am a prankster." "I am killing Me." You know, You die and go to St. Peter... "Did you believe in dinosaurs?" "Well, yeah. There was fossils everywhere" Thuh [trapdoor opens] "Aaaaaaarhhh!" "You fuckin idiot." "Flying lizards, you're a moron. God was fuckin' with you!" "It seemed so plausible, ahhhh!" "Enjoy the lake of fire, fucker!"

You ever noticed how people who believe in creationism look really unevolved? Ya ever noticed that? Eyes real close together, eyebrow ridges, big furry hands and feet. "I believe God created me in one day" Yeah, looks liked He rushed it. They believe the bible is the exact word of God - Then they change the bible! Pretty presumptuous, hu huh? "I think what God meant to say..." I have never been that confident. Next we have a bible out called 'The New Living Bible', it's the bible in updated and modern English. I guess to make it more palatable for people to read. But its really weird, when you listen to it. "And Jesus walked on water. And Peter said, 'Awesome!'" Suddenly we got Jesus hanging ten across the Sea of Galilee. Christ's Bogus Adventure, you know. Deuteronomy 90210, you know.

Such a weird belief. Lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. You think when Jesus comes back he's gonna want to see a fucking cross, man? "Oaww" May be why he hasn't shown up yet. "Man, they're still wearing crosses. Fuck it, I'm not goin, dad. No, they totally missed the point. When they start wearing fishes I might show up again, but... Let me bury fossil heads with you Dad, Fuck em - Let's Fuck with them! They're fuckin with me now, lets get em. Give me that brontosaurus head, Dad."

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 Post subject: The snowflake is &copy; 2000-something WI
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:05 am 
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nick012000 wrote:
Hehehe.

How can you disprove creationism? Build a time machine.
How can you disprove macroevolution? Build a time machine.

Hmm... I wonder how one is more disprovable than the other?

And for the record, there are perfectly scientific creationist theories. The scientific method doesn't care where you get your hypotheses from, as long as you can test them. With macroevolution, that's not possible thanks to the vast stretches of time involved, with creationism, you would need to go back in time to see the world being made.

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/


.........

I've read up a bit on your site, and I have problems with some of its claims. You see, they say the fossil record is compeltely false and that hominids are either human or ape as in today's present forms.

One thing, though. We have DNA testing. It is provable that Lucy and the like aren't the same as modern humans.


Aside from that, here is a problem to propose to you, Nick, our little CS man:

According to creation scientists, the fossil record was created during the flood. That's where all of the bones buried in the earth come from.

Now, this leaves us with a couple problems. If a flood universally killed everyone but the inhabitants on a single ship, we would find more uniform dispersement of bones rather than just simply finding patches here and there, at different strata levels and so on.

Second, if a flood killed everything at once, why are trilobytes at the bottom below such creatures as dinosaurs? Trilobytes are one of the smaller and lighter pre-historic creatures to exist, and by all accounts of creation science, should have floated to the top strata in the flood.







Aside from all of that, something to think about. Take a snowflake and look at it up close. If you zoom in as closely as possible on one, you can see that it is obviously extremely complicated. The water-crystal structures line up in such a way that it produces a perfectly symmetrical shape with structures in it that are next to impossible to reproduce. Sounds like something with some intelligence had to make it, right? Problem is, a simple mathematical algorythm can explain the construction and how to construct more.

Your site says that single celled orginisms are extremely complicated and they are no more simple than humans. This is a false analogy. Comparing a single celled entity to a human is like comparing a modern microprocessor to an abacus.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:12 am 
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nick012000 wrote:

And for the record, there are perfectly scientific creationist theories. The scientific method doesn't care where you get your hypotheses from, as long as you can test them.


You know, I'm fairly sure the basis of science is that you have to be able to prove your hypothesis to be true. So yes, to do that you have to test it. However, it's only a valid scientific theory if the hypothesis is proven. Posing problems for Creationism.

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 Post subject: This is merely a vaguely plausible idea.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:29 am 
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krylex wrote:
Second, if a flood killed everything at once, why are trilobytes at the bottom below such creatures as dinosaurs? Trilobytes are one of the smaller and lighter pre-historic creatures to exist, and by all accounts of creation science, should have floated to the top strata in the flood.

>.>
Get a bucket. Throw in some large stones, then throw in some gravel, then throw in some sand. Now shake it all around for a while. Shake it a bit more. What's at the top? Now throw in some cement mix and a lot of water. Mix it all up with a trowel. Let it set in the bucket. Place the bucket on an external ledge near the top of a building. Attach a rope to the handle. Position yourself or an enemy underneath the bucket. Pull on rope. Enjoy.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:28 am 
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Here's a better idea that will keep everyone happy. Don't teach either of them. They are both just theories. In required core science classes avoid the topics all together in the curriculum. Let Evolution be an optional science credit in public high schools. This way we keep both the religeophobes and the Bible whappers somewhat content.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:17 am 
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Marjin wrote:
Here's a better idea that will keep everyone happy. Don't teach either of them. They are both just theories. In required core science classes avoid the topics all together in the curriculum. Let Evolution be an optional science credit in public high schools. This way we keep both the religeophobes and the Bible whappers somewhat content.

That might work, but then you'd just piss off the oh so concerned parents "because its an optional class and my kid obviously isn't learning enough...and my kid won't take the class because its optional therefore I will bitch and whine and beat it like a dead horse."

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:22 am 
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Grayswandir wrote:
That might work, but then you'd just piss off the oh so concerned parents "because its an optional class and my kid obviously isn't learning enough...and my kid won't take the class because its optional therefore I will bitch and whine and beat it like a dead horse."


Argh, ah well. I really don't give a damn where we came from. The fact is we are here now and have more important things to worry about.

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