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 Post subject: Time to Impeach
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 5:19 pm 
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In authorizing warrantless surveillance, President Bush has broken the law. Period. He has violated the Bill of Rights and Article II of the Constitution. His actions were not only illegal but unconstitutional. It's time to impeach.

The specific legal argument is as follows:

The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA, 1978) was established after public outcry concerning domestic surveillance on civil-rights activists and war protestors. The act states that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court must grant a warrant before the federal government conducts *any* domestic surveillance. Further, so as not to hinder intelligence gathering in times of emergency, the act even permits surveillance to be conducted without a warrant, provided that the government requests one from the court *within 72 hours*.

Plain and simple, for whatever reason, by authorizing warrantless surveillance with no court follow-up, the President broke the FISA law.

For any protesting that such surveillance and monitoring is necessary and inevitable in time of war/crisis, note that this is not a protest against the surveillance or radiation monitoring itself, but rather the illegal method in which it was carried out, which carries the strong smell of questionable motives as shown below.

In addition to violation of the congressionally-passed FISA law, let's check what the Constitution itself has to say:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
- Amendment 4

"Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:-"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of the President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
- Constitution, Article 2, referring specifically to the President

"The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and Misdemeanors."
- Constitution, Article 2

Again, pretty black and white.

It is up to congress, the courts and the people to decide whether or not the President has actually committed a High Crime, but given the above, impeachment proceedings should at the very least be started. Clinton was impeached for lying about adultery, which is negligible compared to breaking the FISA law and trampling the Bill of Rights.

Warrantless domestic surveillance in case of an emergency/crisis is not even necessary, given the 72 hour time period noted above. Thus, it would appear that the only reasons for the President to break the law are ignorance (can't rule out this one) or maybe because at least some of the people being watched *gasp*aren't terror threats. Maybe the NSA is still snooping on journalists, activists and war protestors? What other reason would there be to knowingly circumvent the courts? Because the FISA court might refuse to issue a warrant in those cases? If not, why the need to circumvent the courts who have been more than willing to go along with the War Against Terror and domestic security initiatives so far?

What makes this even sadder is the following statement taken directly from the NSA website:

"Americans expect NSA to conduct its missions within the law. But given the inherently secret nature of those missions, how can Americans be sure that the Agency does not invade their privacy?

The 4th Amendment of the Constitution demands it... oversight committees within all three branches of the U.S. government ensure it... and NSA employees, as U.S. citizens, have a vested interest in upholding it. Respecting the law is only a part of gaining Americans' trust."
- NSA website

Again, if the need for urgent surveillance and monitoring exists, so be it. Let it be done in full observance of rights and the law.

It should not even be a matter for debate at this point. Regardless of whether or not President Bush is ultimately convicted, he broke the law, and impeachment proceedings should start.

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is power. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearsome master.
- George Washington

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 5:33 pm 
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I'd have to say I agree. I just can't figure out why something of this magnitude isn't causing a bigger stir. I was in New York on the weekend and my cousins didn't even know about it, or even care really, when I told them what was going on.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 5:43 pm 
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I don't understand why not, either. All previous attacks and calls for Bush impeachment have been partisan with little or no legal merit, but this is black and white.

Then again, nothing happened when the US Gov decided that they were no longer bound by the Geneva Convention or the Nuremberg rulings:

http://www.chaostan.com/bulletin-070104.html

:/

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 5:49 pm 
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I would personally rather this destroy his credibility and his power and leave him in office. Do you really want Cheney as president?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:37 pm 
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Bush simply thinks he's Lincoln. The problem is, this isn't a civil war.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:45 pm 
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Axl Rose wrote:
Look at your young men fighting
Look at your women crying
Look at your young men dying
The way they've always done before


Look at the hate we're breeding
Look at the fear we're feeding
Look at the lives we're leading
The way we've always done before


My hands are tied
The billions shift from side to side
And the wars go on with brainwashed pride
For the love of God and our human rights
And all these things are swept aside
By bloody hands time can't deny
And are washed away by your genocide
And history hides the lies of our civil wars


D'you wear a black armband
When they shot the man
Who said "Peace could last forever"
And in my first memories
They shot Kennedy
I went numb when I learned to see
So I never fell for Vietnam
We got the wall of D.C. to remind us all
That you can't trust freedom
When it's not in your hands
When everybody's fightin'
For their promised land


And
I don't need your civil war
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
I don't need your civil war


Look at the shoes your filling
Look at the blood we're spilling
Look at the world we're killing
The way we've always done before
Look in the doubt we've wallowed
Look at the leaders we've followed
Look at the lies we've swallowed
And I don't want to hear no more


My hands are tied
For all I've seen has changed my mind
But still the wars go on as the years go by
With no love of God or human rights
'Cause all these dreams are swept aside
By bloody hands of the hypnotized
Who carry the cross of homicide
And history bears the scars of our civil wars


"We practice selective annihilation of mayors
And government officials
For example to create a vacuum
Then we fill that vacuum
As popular war advances
Peace is closer" **


I don't need your civil war
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
And I don't need your civil war
I don't need your civil war
I don't need your civil war
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
I don't need your civil war
I don't need one more war

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:35 am 
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You guys don't get any arguements from me, but 5'll get ya 10 he won't see one article of impeachment. His aides will be more than willing to take the fall for him and honestly, do we REALLY want to get rid of him? If we do, then we get Cheney *shudder* or Sen. Ted Stevens - AK. Stevens is even more whacky than Bush or Cheney from what I've seen.

All in all though, I get a bad feeling that by the time of the next election we'll be lucky to have a country left to vote for. I really see us getting envicerated by the World as a whole.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:27 am 
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Times like this I wish I was Canadian.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:32 am 
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BandMan2K wrote:
You guys don't get any arguements from me, but 5'll get ya 10 he won't see one article of impeachment.


I don't think there would be a "conviction", but I give even odds of impeachment proceedings. My reasoning is that as the economy goes, so goes public mood and the willingness to consider impeachment. With energy prices soaring, debt (especially high interest consumer debt) at record levels, a negative savings rate, and the housing market which has sustained the economy thus far through "ATM withdrawal type" equity loans showing signs of fatigue, I give even odds that 2006 is not going to be a very nice year. If so, public mood could get pretty ugly and things could start looking dicey for Bush, since this is an extremely cut-and-dry case.

And in the event that Bush -is- impeached, Cheney would not be much of a problem because he already has a dirty image and is liked even less than Bush (if that is possible), so there would be extreme limits on what he could do. Furthermore, as Bush's party and the ruling party, the Republicans would take it in the arse come the November elections, so at the very least the U.S. would have a split government, which would greatly hamper whoever was President.

Of course, this is all contingent on the economy -- if things hold up or even improve, then Bush walks.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 2:59 pm 
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Quit stirring up the moonbats Kirima, Impeachment doesn't work and it won't work. Give me an example of when Bush's war on terror eyewash sucessfully arrested (and even better, prosecuted) an American citizen. None? Really, that's funny. The Government has spyed on us since the twenties, and even more so after the Second World War all the way up to this administration. It's nothing new, and both parties have firmly advocated it. But you, in your infinite wisdom, have decided to give into classic Bush Deragement Syndrome and blame everything from your milk curdiling to a bad hair day on Bush, when in reality he is just continuing the fine American tradition of keeping the bad guys out and the good guys in. We are fighting against a people who infiltrate our societies and use our very own civil rights/liberties to take advantage of our system and later kill us. The only way to counter this is to break a few rules in the process. First it was Bootleggers, then Nazis, followed by Commies, and finally followers of the loving and tolerant Religeon of Peace. The enemies change, but our methods don't. It's sad, but if you're not doing anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about. So take off your tin foil hat, remove Fairenheight 9/11 from your DVD drive, and get with the program.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:18 pm 
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Marjin, Kirima doesn't have anything to worry about anyways... I'm pretty sure he already expatriated.

Certainly, I think in a case such as this Impeachment is a necessary statement for the country as a whole to make, regardless of whether or not there's actually a conviction. I've also become convinced that as a country, America has made itself largely populated with people unfit to even parent, let alone govern themselves, and it's highly unlikely an impeachment will happen.

However, I also just plain don't give a damn anymore... apathy has taken over too completely for me to believe things can ever be changed by my efforts. I simply want out, it's just a matter of finding a better place to go.

-_-'

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:37 pm 
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Marjin wrote:
Quit stirring up the moonbats Kirima, Impeachment doesn't work and it won't work. Give me an example of when Bush's war on terror eyewash sucessfully arrested (and even better, prosecuted) an American citizen. None? Really, that's funny. The Government has spyed on us since the twenties, and even more so after the Second World War all the way up to this administration. It's nothing new, and both parties have firmly advocated it. But you, in your infinite wisdom, have decided to give into classic Bush Deragement Syndrome and blame everything from your milk curdiling to a bad hair day on Bush, when in reality he is just continuing the fine American tradition of keeping the bad guys out and the good guys in. We are fighting against a people who infiltrate our societies and use our very own civil rights/liberties to take advantage of our system and later kill us. The only way to counter this is to break a few rules in the process. First it was Bootleggers, then Nazis, followed by Commies, and finally followers of the loving and tolerant Religeon of Peace. The enemies change, but our methods don't. It's sad, but if you're not doing anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about. So take off your tin foil hat, remove Fairenheight 9/11 from your DVD drive, and get with the program.

No president has done anywhere close to what the current administration has done except Lincoln. Look up how much Lincoln respected civil rights. The ONLY reason people venerate Lincoln is because he was assassinated. The war was never about slavery.

Also, FISA made it illegal for intelligence agencies to spy on US citizens back in the 70s. Since the creation of FISA, there have been no reports of an intelligence agency doing it (and I think that in 30 years there would be).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:06 pm 
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Marjin wrote:
A lot of strawman bullshit


As usual, Marjin gets it completely wrong when it comes to issues of government and freedom.

First, I do not blame everything on Bush, nor am I a rabid Bush Hater/Michael Moore fan. In fact, I specifically said that all attacks on Bush so far have been partisan and without legal merit. This case is different because it is so black and white.

Second, I am not arguing against surveillance/monitoring, and even said that if it was necessary, so be it. Just do it legally since the law is already more than generous in providing for it.

Third, you mention the "fine American tradition of keeping the bad guys out and the good guys in." I read that and laughed my arse off, since the US is not even serious about protecting its borders against illegal immigration and smuggling. (sarcasm) But that's okay since illegally spying on US citizens takes care of it. (/sarcasm)

Fourth, realistically speaking, impeachment will occur only if the economy tanks. All Presidential scandals over the last 50 years that happened while times were good (Reagan = Iran-Contra, Clinton = Crouching Intern, Hidden Cigar) did not result in a conviction and/or resignation. However, when times were bad (Nixon = 70s, Bush Sr. = 1990 recession), the Presidents lost popularity and either had to step down or lost reelection, even when there was not a scandal.

So like I said, while there is a clear case for impeachment, it all depends on the economy and public mood.

/edit:

Crap, I almost forgot the funniest one of all:
Marjin wrote:
if you're not doing anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about.


Yep, those journalists and civil rights activists back in the 70s had nothing to worry about and were completely out of line in protesting. And we all know that powers such as these -never- get abused for political or other purposes... :roll:

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"Political power is the game of playing God. It changes a person and makes him different from the rest of us. He begins to believe he has some kind of right to interfere in the lives of others. He may even believe he has the right to choose who lives and who dies."
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:35 pm 
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KirimaNagi wrote:
(Nixon = 70s, Bush Sr. = 1990 recession)


I'm going to take my turn at pedantry and point out that there is no George Sr. Daddy Bush is "George Herbert Walker Bush" and Neo Bush is "George Walker Bush." Since the middle name(s) are different, Sr. and Jr. titles are not used.

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Last edited by B on Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:35 pm 
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KirimaNagi wrote:
As usual, Marjin gets it completely wrong when it comes to issues of government and freedom.


So says the pot to the kettle. You couldn't even begin to imagine the lengths the American government has gone to keep us happily ignorant of the threats posed against us so we can go about our happy lives every day not living in debilitating fear. Our nation is a big, dumb, panicky herd of cattle and the only thing that keeps us from stampeding all over ourselves is control. You canter and caper, bitch and moan about trifles and claim them towers, you can cite outdated eyewash resolutions all damn day but that won't stop people from hating us. Do you really think our government abides by this garbage, the Patriot Act, FISA and and every other piece of shit before it? We can't fight our enemies with our hands tied to our back when they don't. This isn't new, it's been going on forever and it's not going to change any time soon. If you don't like it, leave, and if you're already gone, why do you care?

Nagi wrote:
First, I do not blame everything on Bush, nor am I a rabid Bush Hater/Michael Moore fan. In fact, I specifically said that all attacks on Bush so far have been partisan and without legal merit. This case is different because it is so black and white.


This one has little legal merit too, and is Partisan, if I'm not mistaken. The White House never lauched investigations into it's own itelligence gathering practices because it knows it doesn't need to, so how would we know about this? Maybe a certain someone decided to release a certain letter to boost his standing in a party that could really give a damn about America and only cares to slander a dimit president who is only maintaining the status quo that's lasted for generations, Republican and Democrat. If this were so black and white, then where are the impeachments issued for for every President since Coolige? The Dems are launching all of these fruitless attacks not becuause they disagree with them, but because the are still pissed that they lost twice to a moron. I would be too. Ever since W has been elected they have changed their mission statement to slandering the incumbent above all else. This is just the latest in a long line of attacks; attacks that might hurt us down the road if they weaken our resolve.

Nagi wrote:
Second, I am not arguing against surveillance/monitoring, and even said that if it was necessary, so be it. Just do it legally since the law is already more than generous in providing for it.


Not really. If you are truely under the delusion that the government has always faithfully followed the written word then I really feel sorry for you. If we played by the rules then we would have already lost by now. War isn't fair and neither is life. You want to make America into a social paridase where our gentlemanly government always plays fair and always keeps it's word. A nation of our size and stature that doesn't profile, tap, torture, interrogate, kidnap, kill, or God knows what won't last. The sad truth why we are standing here on this soil today is because of those reasons.

Nagi wrote:
Third, you mention the "fine American tradition of keeping the bad guys out and the good guys in." I read that and laughed my arse off, since the US is not even serious about protecting its borders against illegal immigration and smuggling. (sarcasm) But that's okay since illegally spying on US citizens takes care of it. (/sarcasm)


How cute, you use sarc tags, it's like debating on the MT forum! Put this all into perspective then, if you had limited resources, who would monitor: illiegal migrant farmers and drug smugglers, or men who shave their beards, educate themselves in our own country and then crash commercial jets into buildings, blow up busses, set fire to cars and the elderly? As an old African saying goes, you cant worry about the ants when a stampede is coming your way.

Kirima wrote:
Fourth, realistically speaking, impeachment will occur only if the economy tanks. All Presidential scandals over the last 50 years that happened while times were good (Reagan = Iran-Contra, Clinton = Crouching Intern, Hidden Cigar) did not result in a conviction and/or resignation. However, when times were bad (Nixon = 70s, Bush Sr. = 1990 recession), the Presidents lost popularity and either had to step down or lost reelection, even when there was not a scandal.

So like I said, while there is a clear case for impeachment, it all depends on the economy and public mood.


Untrue. For the most part our elected leaders have learned to ignore the economy when it comes to impeachment. It's nothing more than a cycle and a luck based coincidence to whoever is in office. More canidates always try to run on the upside. If your thesis were true, then wouldn't Andrew Johnson, successor to Lincoln, been impeched during Reconstruction, the lowest economic point in US history? Let's look at Nixon then, he saw the writing on the wall and knew he was going to be impeached, but what of the economy when he left office? Not bad. Now let's look a a year after he left office. Ouch. Clinton wasn't impeached simply because the cause was frivilous and his actions were negligible anyway. So what if your wet dream comes true and Bush is impeached, Dems reclaim the house in '06 and Hillary is elected in '08. But do you really think our methods will change? Sure, we may as well disband Gitmo kiss the Eurabians asses about nonsensical prisons, we may even ditch the Iraqis, but will that change our horrible ways of not keeping our word? Never. You call fallacy on me but your whole argument is a sham because you see American History though rose-tinted glasses. Read some of the recently declassified info on our methods during the Cold War and think about what lengths we are taking now. I'll be the first to tell you, we're not pretty and we don't play fair. I don't like this country, but it's the best civilization has to offer now, if you don't like it, change it or leave it.

Nagi wrote:
Yep, those journalists and civil rights activists back in the 70s had nothing to worry about and were completely out of line in protesting. And we all know that powers such as these -never- get abused for political or other purposes...


Okay, so you can cite a first time occasion. Has it happened since? If what you believe is true, would Cindy Sheehan still be contributing to hole in the ozone layer with her hot air? The government found out in the sixties that by killing it's detractors only weakens it's position, but by allowing them unadulterated free speech and press now strengthens it. Bush won in 2004 because of this very reason. Liberals were out making fools of themselves in the spotlight and the average Americans took notice. Just be happy that our government learns from its mistakes.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:31 pm 
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Uhm, Marjin...

Who are these enemies you keep mentioning? You seem to take it for granted that we have some and are fighting them... so I'd like to have an idea of exactly who they are and why they're supposed to be our enemy, and what steps we've considered and/or are taking in our fight against these unknown individuals.

If I am by my own inaction going to authorize the actions of our government, I want full details of who they're against and why they're supposed to be justifiable. I want the government to be accountable to the people... not just for the sake of ideals, but for my own protection.

I do NOT feel safer with the government hunting down unspecified enemies for unspecified reasons in unspecified ways. How do I know that they won't decide I'M an enemy, and leave me with no defense from at the very least an incredible invasion of my privacy? Without the laws we've mentioned, any person with connections and an agenda could victimize me... with those laws, at least I have a chance to stop them. Honestly, I'd rather have these mysterious enemies after me than give up my right to privacy.

Put simply, the laws are supposed to be in place to protect the innocent... ignoring them simply to better apprehend people we are not certain are guilty is NOT acceptable, ESPECIALLY if doing so is being hidden from the public eye. There quite simply is no acceptable reason for a government to circumvent such laws in a covert manner.

>.<'

Edit: This isn't to say that I think the government will always follow the rules... simply that the rules provide a check to excessive abuse of power, and keep the government somewhat accountable to the people.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:43 pm 
@_@ wrote:
Also, FISA made it <strike>il</strike>legal for intelligence agencies to spy on US citizens back in the 70s as long as a federal judge finds probable cause to believe that a U.S. citizen is an agent of a foreign power. Since the creation of FISA, there have been <strike>no</strike>few reports of an intelligence agency doing it (and I think that in 30 years there would be).


Fixed for accuracy.

Also, even if more reports did exist, the FOIA allows the CIA/NSA from having to devulge their methods and sources of their information.

So basically, we've handed the government the keys and said "We're trusting you to get us home safely.", all the while never bothering to follow the route they're taking.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:16 pm 
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Marjin wrote:
Blah blah blah


Let's see now, you started by grossly twisting and exaggerating my position (strawman) and then expanded it to lead to absurd conclusions (slippery slope). You then launched a few ad hominem attacks (Bush Hater, Michael Moore fan), and continued with an accusation of partisanship (obviously showing no real understanding of the word). You then tried to use the "everyone's doing it" (common practice) fallacy, and from there proposed a "false dilemma" by phrasing it as an extreme case "either-or" argument where the government either breaks the law or we all perish.

Only on the internet could one see this many debating fallacies and intellectual dishonesty at a single blow. Truly amazing. And I probably missed a few at that. Lacking a good comprehensive term for this utter abuse of the human faculty for reasoning, I shall label it "Marjin-alization".

(Oh noes! My argument is being "Marjin-alized"!)

And to top it all off, you still tried to ignore the point. Namely: The US Gov knowingly, willfully and flagrantly violated the FISA Law, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights when there was no need to do so when the law already provides for authorization of surveillance, even after the fact.

No legal merit? Hah.

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Democracy is not liberty. It is majority rule, which is mob rule. We live in a Mobocracy.

"Political power is the game of playing God. It changes a person and makes him different from the rest of us. He begins to believe he has some kind of right to interfere in the lives of others. He may even believe he has the right to choose who lives and who dies."
— Richard Maybury


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:25 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 11:25 am
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Location: Seoul, South Korea
Perhaps this thread should be moved to the Debate Club...

^-^'

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:26 pm 
Imp-Chan wrote:
Perhaps this thread should be moved to the Debate Club...

^-^'


Agreed.


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