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 Post subject: Debate Club Meta-Discussion
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:12 am 
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So, Debate Club has risen again from one of its many un-dead naps and shambled back into activity. While some of the new people may still be reading, I'd like to see if there's any interest in starting more threads for general discussion of science, technology, philosophy, etc.

The cyclic nature of Debate Club comes partly from the fact that most people seem to think it's about <i>argument</i>, so many forumers refuse to read or post to DC. This means new topics are spotty and usually come up when someone gets peeved at a new law/election/political scandal etc.

Myself, I'd like to see more salon-style discussion of things that are too off-topic for the comic boards and too serious for Unrelated.

The REASON I'm starting a meta-thread instead of just going ahead and posting is I want to encourage other people to start new topics too. I think there is a good bit of unorganized interest in floating around the forum (In the Midlands board in particular), but there really isn't enough to start, for example, a Technology and Computing board. (As has been suggested various times in the past.)

The <a href="http://barbelith.com/">Barbelith</a> Switchboard and Laboratory boards are a good example of what I'm thinking about. I don't want DC to be StepStone II, but I'd like to get clear of the idea that every thread in Debate Club has to be a bare-knuckled argument. A thought-provoking topic and some well spell-checked commentary should be enough.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:11 pm 
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I started the "I take my life in my hands" thread in hopes of reviving the Debate Club. Now, it became a discussion of gun control, even though my initial post never used the word "gun" and I certainly made no mention of any particular law of any country. In that there are people to whom their ownership of guns is very important, and there are furthermore people to whom any public ownership of guns is abhorrent, and in especial that such people are inclined to debate with each other, mention of weapons sparked that debate.

Yes, I intended that. No, I'm not ashamed of myself. The forum needs people in it.

Two people actually posted on-topic: you and Boss Out of Town, and your postings were interesting and edifying. I was hoping for Emy's own rebuttal, but she seems very quiet lately, so I hope more now that she's okay.

Someone then ported the "smoking our bibles" thread from a comic forum and at first it didn't make much sense at all. He updated it and now it's a fairly popular thread, though I myself lack much interest in it. Religion is always a spark for debate.

Thinman wrote:
While some of the new people may still be reading, I'd like to see if there's any interest in starting more threads for general discussion of science, technology, philosophy, etc.


Absolutely! My contention here is that the quiet in the Debate Club forum has been due to a lack of new and gripping topics. Now, there's lots of past discussion of science and politics and philosophy in the forum, but people are hesitant to read through it and I can understand why. Certain names (Wandering Idiot, Zarathustra, *cough* Tamayo, many forum-ites who no longer post on Kyhm's) show up a lot and the owners of those names seem arrogantly sure of their positions, such that anyone stepping into any discussion between those people might be subject to intellectual bitch-slapping. Well, um, I resemble those remarks. So do Icy and WI.

Don't hesitate to open new threads for what might have been said before. I did it with the "take my life in my hands" thread: gun control is hardly a new thing to talk about, in this forum or elsewhere, though I did try to put a different spin on it. ;-)

For example, here are some topics that interest me that I do not know might interest others: Are software patents at all acceptable? How much power of oversight should governments arrogate to themselves with regards strong encryption? When quantum computers eventually get constructed, who should control their use? Under what circumstances should national security override personal liberty? If you want to discuss those things, make topics from them!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:34 am 
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Maybe just change the name from Debate Club to something like "Serious Discussion".


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:17 pm 
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Perhaps because, ignoring any connotation that may differ from person to person, that's exactly what a debate is.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:02 pm 
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Offtopic-ness abounds!

Tamayo wrote:
For example, here are some topics that interest me that I do not know might interest others: Are software patents at all acceptable? How much power of oversight should governments arrogate to themselves with regards strong encryption? When quantum computers eventually get constructed, who should control their use? Under what circumstances should national security override personal liberty? If you want to discuss those things, make topics from them!

I'd love to see some of this, although the first two are more interesting to me than the second two due to immediate applicability.

Of course, i suspect most of the people eager for those topics to be debated are going to be on the same side...

On-topic:

In my experience, forums dedicated to debate eventually stagnate. There are a bunch of topics that are radioactive and on which nobody is going to change their mind--which is a shame, because usually minds need changing on these... Most other topics are not as interesting to the general forumers as the radioactive ones, so most topics tend to drift into one of them and then melt down. Every once in a while a new or unusual topic pops up, but usually these turn into debates on the radioactive topics also because someone can't accept a position in this unusual topic without modifying or weakening their position in one of the big ones. So nobody wants to talk about anything because it turns into a food fight with words.

Personally, i blame Republicans!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:42 am 
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Winter wrote:
Offtopic-ness abounds!

Tamayo wrote:
For example, here are some topics that interest me that I do not know might interest others: Are software patents at all acceptable? How much power of oversight should governments arrogate to themselves with regards strong encryption? When quantum computers eventually get constructed, who should control their use? Under what circumstances should national security override personal liberty? If you want to discuss those things, make topics from them!

I'd love to see some of this, although the first two are more interesting to me than the second two due to immediate applicability.

Of course, i suspect most of the people eager for those topics to be debated are going to be on the same side...

On-topic:

In my experience, forums dedicated to debate eventually stagnate. There are a bunch of topics that are radioactive and on which nobody is going to change their mind--which is a shame, because usually minds need changing on these... Most other topics are not as interesting to the general forumers as the radioactive ones, so most topics tend to drift into one of them and then melt down. Every once in a while a new or unusual topic pops up, but usually these turn into debates on the radioactive topics also because someone can't accept a position in this unusual topic without modifying or weakening their position in one of the big ones. So nobody wants to talk about anything because it turns into a food fight with words.

Personally, i blame Republicans!

Your theory makes a lot of sense. Do you have a way 'round the problem?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:12 am 
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Not true, winter. As a counter example, I will point towards this.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:43 am 
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Winter wrote:
Personally, I blame Republicans!


Agreed. And good to see you on the forums, Winter!

Anyway, I've never really seen a debate forum go completely stagnant unless the rest of the forum did as well, but I have seen their use go up and down a lot. Most people seem to need time to adjust to new opinions or recover from particularly strong discussions, so they take breaks from the forum for a while. When something interesting crops up and they've been gone a while they show up again until the next thing breaks their interest for a while. I think by keeping some low-key issues on the debate board constantly, things without a lot of political fire to them, we might be able to bring up the number of people who check often without turning people off to it all the time. Possibly debates over how to hash out the details of Baron's self-moderation scheme would be acceptable, or something along the lines of forum mechanics in another way?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:48 am 
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nick012000 wrote:
Not true, winter. As a counter example, I will point towards this.

You confuse "topical discussion" with "political discussion." They are not the same.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:01 am 
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Wrin wrote:
Possibly debates over how to hash out the details of Baron's self-moderation scheme would be acceptable

Too technical perhaps, plus I already enjoy the enlightened dictatorship under which we are allowed to frolic.

Quote:
or something along the lines of forum mechanics in another way?

But I don't enjoy our enlightened dictatorship enough to be willing to suggest either: debate on rules appropriate for the forums (in whole or for the non-comic portions), or perhaps even a debate on how or whether to turn the heirarchy of mods and admins into some sort of judicial structure to enforce and arbitrate said rules.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:05 am 
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For the record, I am no longer in favor of self-moderation. The proletarians are not wise enough to govern themselves, and if such a thing were possible, it would quickly devolve into something like Gaia (which would be horrible).

Forum mechanics are best left invisible. Of course, users should feel like they have some input, but in reality, they should have absolutely none.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:10 am 
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The Baron wrote:
For the record, I am no longer in favor of self-moderation. The proletarians are not wise enough to govern themselves, and if such a thing were possible, it would quickly devolve into something like Gaia (which would be horrible).

Forum mechanics are best left invisible. Of course, users should feel like they have some input, but in reality, they should have absolutely none.


Then shouldn't they be able to debate about them without having any actual means to change them?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:18 am 
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The Baron wrote:
For the record, I am no longer in favor of self-moderation. The proletarians are not wise enough to govern themselves, and if such a thing were possible, it would quickly devolve into something like Gaia (which would be horrible).

Forum mechanics are best left invisible. Of course, users should feel like they have some input, but in reality, they should have absolutely none.

Regular elections for certain positions within the regime. But while those positions may have grandiose names, it's actually the unelected positions with the sucky titles that have the real power. Something like that?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:43 am 
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Vass wrote:
The Baron wrote:
For the record, I am no longer in favor of self-moderation. The proletarians are not wise enough to govern themselves, and if such a thing were possible, it would quickly devolve into something like Gaia (which would be horrible).

Forum mechanics are best left invisible. Of course, users should feel like they have some input, but in reality, they should have absolutely none.

Regular elections for certain positions within the regime. But while those positions may have grandiose names, it's actually the unelected positions with the sucky titles that have the real power. Something like that?

Yeah. You're never going to elect an admin democratically.

also:

Quote:
Then shouldn't they be able to debate about them without having any actual means to change them?

who said you couldn't?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:51 am 
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Winter wrote:
Personally, i blame Republicans!


Why, because we're confident that our position is the correct one? ^_~

[/intentionally inflammatory post that I absolutely had to make]

I think the reason Debate Club comes and goes is because people don't want to spend all their time debating topics with their friends. Spend too much time in here, and you end up seeing everyone as an adversary, and the rest of the board crumbles. Tack on the tendency for even small debates to turn into 'radioactive' ones, and people will steer clear of here until a thread elsewhere gets moved, as has been happening a lot recently.

Also, it seems we just entered the Fourth Reich. Cookie to whoever can PM me with exactly what I mean by that.

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Last edited by Jasper on Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:53 am 
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Oh.

I am in favor of giving something all the trappings of self-moderation when nothing of the sort is actually done (e.g., it's still controlled entirely by one or two people).

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:55 am 
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Then we all agree that perpetual debate about changes which will never actually happen would be good? Except for Vass, who wouldn't visit them because they might be in some way technical?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:57 am 
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Wrin wrote:
Then we all agree that perpetual debate about changes which will never actually happen would be good? Except for Vass, who wouldn't visit them because they might be in some way technical?


Good in a purely masturbatory fashion. Frankly, I couldn't care less how these boards are run or implemented, since I'm happy with them as they are. If your changes don't significantly alter that, I don't have a problem with that either.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:00 am 
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The Baron wrote:
Vass wrote:
Regular elections for certain positions within the regime. But while those positions may have grandiose names, it's actually the unelected positions with the sucky titles that have the real power. Something like that?

Yeah. You're never going to elect an admin democratically.

Quote:
I am in favor of giving something all the trappings of self-moderation when nothing of the sort is actually done (e.g., it's still controlled entirely by one or two people).

Sounds entirely akin to Athenian democracy at the height of Athens. >.>

Wrin wrote:
Then we all agree that perpetual debate about changes which will never actually happen would be good? Except for Vass, who wouldn't visit them because they might be in some way technical?

The complexities underlying it would be too far beyond my feeble southern hemispheran brain.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:05 am 
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Vass wrote:
Sounds entirely akin to Athenian democracy at the height of Athens. >.>

Heh. I'm not really a fan of democracy as a system of government, but at the same time, I am not inclined to trust rulers at all. The advantage here is that if you don't like it, you can really just leave without a problem.

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