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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:08 am 
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Personally Ive given up on any rational discourse in the public arena over the effectiveness or non-effectiveness of affirmative action. It's far too emotionally charged an issue, and one where both sides (Pfeh, "both sides"... ah well, this is not a rant about Americas two-party system) have far too much at stake to EVER risk real debate.

I think we are reaching the stage where a lot of affirmative action does more harm then good, breeds more resentment then it actually combats racism. I think of all the changes that need to happen it, some form of income-based selectivity is the most prominant, as Tossrock says. Well to do middle class black or jewish people being given grants just for being born who they are is not the way to create a more equal or unpredjudiced society.

Heh, even here in England we have an equivalent problem. Maybe not so pronounced as you guys, but still: I remember some guy in my philosophy class who was a muslim or sikh or something, joking about how he was going to see if he could make it through university without giving any information about his religion or ethnicity. Apparently even though you could put "Other" or "I don't wish to say" on the application forms, the university had sent round more forms to all the people that hadn't specified, saying that they "didn't seem to have a record" of that information, and could you please fill in this form and post it back to the head office, thank you.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:55 am 
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Nicrat wrote:
Is both funny and relevant. Affirmative action further isolated U.S. minorities, though, which is an ongoing argument among my friends who are of mixed races.

Which is stupid, because I'm of a mind that the HUMAN race is all that matters.


Sadly
that state of mind is still rare.
as much as people like to SAY that they are open minded, there will always be a situation where they will have some sort of prejudice about someone.
Again
sad but true.

Blue Sun Missile
...

edit
cenwood: a question
is that illegal in england for them to continue to ask for that?
I believe that it is illegal to enforce an answer for that question here in the usa (anyone who knows better feel free to correct me if i am wrong please)
it can even be seen as a form of harrassment, if you wanted to carry this to an extreme measure

edit #2
tossrock said " in corporate america is it whitey central"
and dont forget the good old boy network.
in the place i work there are VERY few minorities or women working here.
especially for the higher jobs.
and sadly, the ceo is a woman and does little to nothing to fix this.
then again
she is not the brightest bulb in the socket.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:40 am 
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Blue Sun Missile wrote:
I believe that it is illegal to enforce an answer for that question here in the usa (anyone who knows better feel free to correct me if i am wrong please)
it can even be seen as a form of harrassment, if you wanted to carry this to an extreme measure

In some circumstances it is illegal according to national/federal law and in others it's left up to the state. In cases where the college or other institution receives state funding (which is most of them), it is almost always illegal to press for information regarding anything which it is illegal to discriminate based on.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:39 pm 
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Wrin wrote:
Blue Sun Missile wrote:
I believe that it is illegal to enforce an answer for that question here in the usa (anyone who knows better feel free to correct me if i am wrong please)
it can even be seen as a form of harrassment, if you wanted to carry this to an extreme measure

In some circumstances it is illegal according to national/federal law and in others it's left up to the state. In cases where the college or other institution receives state funding (which is most of them), it is almost always illegal to press for information regarding anything which it is illegal to discriminate based on.


Asking someone's religion? Not an issue. Discriminating based on religion without a bona fide occupational qualification to back it up? That's an issue.

There's a really thin line where it goes from being far too curious for one's own good to out-and-out discrimination. Also, educational institutions are allowed to ask for that information, as it used by the government for various things (Like discrimination protection! Woo!).

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:19 am 
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Rusty wrote:
Wrin wrote:
Blue Sun Missile wrote:
I believe that it is illegal to enforce an answer for that question here in the usa (anyone who knows better feel free to correct me if i am wrong please)
it can even be seen as a form of harrassment, if you wanted to carry this to an extreme measure

In some circumstances it is illegal according to national/federal law and in others it's left up to the state. In cases where the college or other institution receives state funding (which is most of them), it is almost always illegal to press for information regarding anything which it is illegal to discriminate based on.


Asking someone's religion? Not an issue. Discriminating based on religion without a bona fide occupational qualification to back it up? That's an issue.

There's a really thin line where it goes from being far too curious for one's own good to out-and-out discrimination. Also, educational institutions are allowed to ask for that information, as it used by the government for various things (Like discrimination protection! Woo!).


Strange, I was at UCSD last weekend, and the one of the deans of Sixth College said it was against federal law to ask a student's religion...

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:42 am 
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That's odd. Here's why.

Let's assume that the school has a fund set up for giving money to student organizations. Now let's assume that a buddhist sect wanted to start up an on-campus awareness organization- this is what happens at many schools with Christian groups, so why not? Let's say that the group asks for $25,000 dollars for their activities over the year (By comparisson, the radio station I volunteer at rakes in about twice that and we're the second or third largest student-ran entity on campus). How in the world could the university respond to this budget without seeming as though they're discriminating, but at the same time assuring that the group can get at least something for what the group requires?

That's right, non-manditory surveys.

Since students are directly requesting funds, it helps to know your demographics- if there were a huge number of buddhists on campus, then that $25,000 per year may be warranted; if there were less than 10 and all they wanted to do with the money was print flyers and get guest speakers, then that amount might be a bit high. Otherwise, it comes down to subjective measurements and those do not work very well when defending one's case in court.

Under a system where one can not use the characteristics of the masses you're attempting to service, one obviously can not work towards that goal efficiently. So without this sort of discrimination, stuff would be very prone to abuse, and just as unfair as a situation wherein gross discrimination is going on. Leading back to the example...

Would you be angry if a buddhism awareness group that consisted of a no more than 10 people recieved that large sum of money? I know I would be.



... That, and I cannot find a federal law that prohibits a university to ask that question, just as I cannot find one that disallows for asking of gender, race, ethnicity, etc. It's when discriminatory practices that cause for imbalance occur that there is an issue.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:15 am 
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It was an aside as he was speaking extemporaneously, so he may have meant something a little more nuanced; I only know he said what he said.

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