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 Post subject: Affirmative Action
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:34 pm 
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Wrin wrote:
krylex wrote:
Ryven wrote:
I agree. Affirmative Action demands it.


I refuse to accept Affirmative Action. It is the most racist device ever composed, with the exception of gas chambers.


I agree that it's racist, actually. Maybe not the most racist device ever composed ("Seriously? A free cruise!? Sure, we'll get on your boat Mr. Slavemaster!"), but still racist. Anyway, I really don't think they're all that mad at you Kry. (And I would like to be a mod, but that might be because I want my name to show up in green...or it might not be.)


Ryven wrote:
I failed my "comedy gold" check. :911:

But seriously, I really agree. It bothers me that qualified applicants can be turned away because the "minority" quota isn't fulfilled. Not that I'm saying that minorities aren't qualified, it's quite the opposite. But I've seen quite a few minorites get into colleges and into jobs solely on the basis of their skin color.

Meh. Pretty sure if I go further into this, it'll end up in debate club. Let's end it here.


The Baron wrote:
affirmative action does not equal quotas, you know.


Affirmative action, at least here in the states, causes many problems in which a minority applicant gains the grounds to sue if they are not chosen over another applicant with similar qualifications. It also means that businesses with all-minority employees (rarely) gain extra benefits for shunning the racial/ethnic/religious/whatever majority applicants.

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 Post subject: Re: Affirmative Action
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:47 pm 
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Wrin wrote:
Affirmative action, at least here in the states, causes many problems in which a minority applicant gains the grounds to sue if they are not chosen over another applicant with similar qualifications.

Minority applicants already had such grounds before. It was called blatant racism.


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 Post subject: Re: Affirmative Action
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:06 pm 
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Radio wrote:
Wrin wrote:
Affirmative action, at least here in the states, causes many problems in which a minority applicant gains the grounds to sue if they are not chosen over another applicant with similar qualifications.

Minority applicants already had such grounds before. It was called blatant racism.


By similar qualifications I meant that even if the other applicant was slightly more qualified you can get sued for not hiring the minority one. In some cases even if they are MUCH more qualified you're in legal danger if you don't hire the one that's a minority.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:36 pm 
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You can argue that the other way as well. A white man could sue arguing inofficial quotas.

But ignore bullshit legal technicalities(which are mostly if you're talking nonsense like quotas or the UoM cases) and discuss the issue itself.

Go look up Justice Powell on the subject(particularly the Bakke case) as that is the considered legal precent here.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:21 am 
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Wrinwrin wrote:
Affirmative action, at least here in the states, causes many problems in which a minority applicant gains the grounds to sue if they are not chosen over another applicant with similar qualifications. It also means that businesses with all-minority employees (rarely) gain extra benefits for shunning the racial/ethnic/religious/whatever majority applicants.


Actually...

Affirmative action is based on a bunch of things to determine a "realistic" model of people in an industry, then seeks to increase or maintain this balance. Provided that a company is putting forth a good faith effort and is using the "4/5ths rule" as a rule of thumb for composition and relative figures to meet, then they're fine. And while a minority applicant might try to sue for discrimination, provided the company can back up their interview/selection process with relatively high validity/reliability coefficients (Provided the selection procedures aren't biased to begin with). Also, to say businesses with all-minority employees don't benefit from following affirmative action, that is false. An applicant could quite easily sue based on reverse discrimination, because the company's composition would be nowhere near field average.

Also... Generally, affirmative action only really gets hammered in when the company does government work, or has had problems with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission in the past due to discriminatory practices. And there are differing levels of affirmative action, ranging from passive nondiscrimination (Decisions on applicants cannot discriminatory in nature, and most common with companies not in hot water), to pure affirmative action (Where there is active recruitment of minorities, but we still hire the most qualified applicant), to affirmative action with preferential hiring (AKA Soft quotas, wherein minorities are prefered but not specifically hired), to affirmative action with selective hiring (AKA hard quotas, where minorities are hired to specific amounts as determined by the EEOC or whatever local body is overseeing the thing).

As you can see, things can get very messy very quickly.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:50 am 
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Rusty wrote:
Wrinwrin wrote:
( ... my text ... )


^_^ Rusty called me Wrinwrin!

Rustypoo wrote:
Actually...

Affirmative action is based on a bunch of things to determine a "realistic" model of people in an industry, then seeks to increase or maintain this balance. Provided that a company is putting forth a good faith effort and is using the "4/5ths rule" as a rule of thumb for composition and relative figures to meet, then they're fine. And while a minority applicant might try to sue for discrimination, provided the company can back up their interview/selection process with relatively high validity/reliability coefficients (Provided the selection procedures aren't biased to begin with). Also, to say businesses with all-minority employees don't benefit from following affirmative action, that is false. An applicant could quite easily sue based on reverse discrimination, because the company's composition would be nowhere near field average.

Also... Generally, affirmative action only really gets hammered in when the company does government work, or has had problems with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission in the past due to discriminatory practices. And there are differing levels of affirmative action, ranging from passive nondiscrimination (Decisions on applicants cannot discriminatory in nature, and most common with companies not in hot water), to pure affirmative action (Where there is active recruitment of minorities, but we still hire the most qualified applicant), to affirmative action with preferential hiring (AKA Soft quotas, wherein minorities are prefered but not specifically hired), to affirmative action with selective hiring (AKA hard quotas, where minorities are hired to specific amounts as determined by the EEOC or whatever local body is overseeing the thing).

As you can see, things can get very messy very quickly.


I guess I see your point that an honest effort is put forth to make it non-racist by many people and their policies, but I think I'm a little too bias to continue the debate. Having been pretty poor for a long time (I'm lower middle class, now YAY!!) I've lost a lot of stuff because I was poor and seen families in similar (sometimes worse, sometimes better) situations get help just because they were minorities. Being a white male computer science major is, needless to say, extremely common. I get absolutely shit for scholarships and no financial aid whatsoever, I work for every penny of my college tuition, and I see people who are supposed to be minorities who don't work at all and have two to three times the amount of money for college that I do because of their ethnicity. I know there are other factors involved, but it's hard for me to be rational about it a lot of the time. Really, I know a lot of those people have a hard time at home and just live with less so that they can buy their books when I'm not willing to do the same thing; I'm sure a lot of them got lucky or knew better ways to go about getting the money than I did; none of that changes how I feel a whole lot. So, sorry guys but I think I'm out for now. It's not something I can honestly debate from a neutral position and I don't think I'll be swayed from my opinion that affirmative action goes way too far.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:00 am 
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From what wrin wrote it seems to me that this could be a problem for the average white person. Before there was violence and general racism towards minorities because we believed that they were taking our money and our jobs. Now that the geovernment is inforcing something like this there is bound to be some backlash against the minorities.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:10 am 
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Is both funny and relevant. Affirmative action further isolated U.S. minorities, though, which is an ongoing argument among my friends who are of mixed races.

Which is stupid, because I'm of a mind that the HUMAN race is all that matters.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:25 am 
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I'm against affirmative action.

Even if I might be on the receiving end of it, due to my 'disability'.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:33 am 
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Wrin wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Wrinwrin wrote:
( ... my text ... )


^_^ Rusty called me Wrinwrin!

Rustypoo wrote:
Actually...

Affirmative action is based on a bunch of things to determine a "realistic" model of people in an industry, then seeks to increase or maintain this balance. Provided that a company is putting forth a good faith effort and is using the "4/5ths rule" as a rule of thumb for composition and relative figures to meet, then they're fine. And while a minority applicant might try to sue for discrimination, provided the company can back up their interview/selection process with relatively high validity/reliability coefficients (Provided the selection procedures aren't biased to begin with). Also, to say businesses with all-minority employees don't benefit from following affirmative action, that is false. An applicant could quite easily sue based on reverse discrimination, because the company's composition would be nowhere near field average.

Also... Generally, affirmative action only really gets hammered in when the company does government work, or has had problems with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission in the past due to discriminatory practices. And there are differing levels of affirmative action, ranging from passive nondiscrimination (Decisions on applicants cannot discriminatory in nature, and most common with companies not in hot water), to pure affirmative action (Where there is active recruitment of minorities, but we still hire the most qualified applicant), to affirmative action with preferential hiring (AKA Soft quotas, wherein minorities are prefered but not specifically hired), to affirmative action with selective hiring (AKA hard quotas, where minorities are hired to specific amounts as determined by the EEOC or whatever local body is overseeing the thing).

As you can see, things can get very messy very quickly.


I guess I see your point that an honest effort is put forth to make it non-racist by many people and their policies, but I think I'm a little too bias to continue the debate. Having been pretty poor for a long time (I'm lower middle class, now YAY!!) I've lost a lot of stuff because I was poor and seen families in similar (sometimes worse, sometimes better) situations get help just because they were minorities. Being a white male computer science major is, needless to say, extremely common. I get absolutely shit for scholarships and no financial aid whatsoever, I work for every penny of my college tuition, and I see people who are supposed to be minorities who don't work at all and have two to three times the amount of money for college that I do because of their ethnicity. I know there are other factors involved, but it's hard for me to be rational about it a lot of the time. Really, I know a lot of those people have a hard time at home and just live with less so that they can buy their books when I'm not willing to do the same thing; I'm sure a lot of them got lucky or knew better ways to go about getting the money than I did; none of that changes how I feel a whole lot. So, sorry guys but I think I'm out for now. It's not something I can honestly debate from a neutral position and I don't think I'll be swayed from my opinion that affirmative action goes way too far.


I applied for financial aid for school back in July of last year.

Between me and my ex, we made 19,000 in the previous year.

Because I am a white male, my expected amount of money I would be able to use on school was 4000, which exempted me from any financial aid from my school.

We sat down with a calculator for shits and grins.

Had I been a woman, I would have got a standard pell grant.

Had I been a minority, I would have got a standard pell grant and a couple others.

Had I been a minority woman, I would have got a couple grand a semester.


I don't understand the Department of Educations calculation process.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:09 am 
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krylex wrote:
I applied for financial aid for school back in July of last year.

Between me and my ex, we made 19,000 in the previous year.

Because I am a white male, my expected amount of money I would be able to use on school was 4000, which exempted me from any financial aid from my school.

We sat down with a calculator for shits and grins.

Had I been a woman, I would have got a standard pell grant.

Had I been a minority, I would have got a standard pell grant and a couple others.

Had I been a minority woman, I would have got a couple grand a semester.

I don't understand the Department of Educations calculation process.


This is yet another example of why I feel so cheated. :/

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:30 am 
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And that SO pushed my point about why it further isolates minorities in the eyes of white America.

My grandmother is a Mexican lady, and her husband was the hairiest Irish bastard I've ever seen (I loved grandpa, don't get me wrong.) My mom married a half Portuguese half white man. Now if I were to apply for a grant, would they just carve up my racial heritage and give me a pittance depending on how not-white I am? haha

Affirmative action ftl.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:30 pm 
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Nicrat wrote:
And that SO pushed my point about why it further isolates minorities in the eyes of white America.

My grandmother is a Mexican lady, and her husband was the hairiest Irish bastard I've ever seen (I loved grandpa, don't get me wrong.) My mom married a half Portuguese half white man. Now if I were to apply for a grant, would they just carve up my racial heritage and give me a pittance depending on how not-white I am? haha

Affirmative action ftl.


Don't think about it like that. My situation isn't quite because of affirmative action, but it along the same path.

Affirmative action primarily applies to the workplace, and the problem is not that it exists, but that race is an issue at all.

If you take race completely out of the question, then we have a true level playing field. Until race is no longer a question on applications, we won't.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:41 pm 
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krylex wrote:
If you take race completely out of the question, then we have a true level playing field. Until race is no longer a question on applications, we won't.


This is exactly what I was thinking at the beginning. Um...also, I think (but am not sure, please correct me if I'm wrong) that we (in the U.S.) use the term affirmative for both employment and educational benefits.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:25 pm 
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krylex wrote:
Nicrat wrote:
And that SO pushed my point about why it further isolates minorities in the eyes of white America.

My grandmother is a Mexican lady, and her husband was the hairiest Irish bastard I've ever seen (I loved grandpa, don't get me wrong.) My mom married a half Portuguese half white man. Now if I were to apply for a grant, would they just carve up my racial heritage and give me a pittance depending on how not-white I am? haha

Affirmative action ftl.


Don't think about it like that. My situation isn't quite because of affirmative action, but it along the same path.

Affirmative action primarily applies to the workplace, and the problem is not that it exists, but that race is an issue at all.

If you take race completely out of the question, then we have a true level playing field. Until race is no longer a question on applications, we won't.


Totally.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:37 pm 
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So, as I start to add my two cents in regards to the new stuff in the topic...

Affirmative action in the workplace != What goes on with loans/grants/what-have-yous in academia. As Krykry has pointed out, they're topics that are unrelated for what was originally brought up- and while it may be a valid part of the argument (As education leads to "higher" jobs, and what we're talking about involves these sort of jobs...), it'd probably be best not to get into it for now.

Now that we have that settled, onward!

Destroyer_of_ants wrote:
From what wrin wrote it seems to me that this could be a problem for the average white person. Before there was violence and general racism towards minorities because we believed that they were taking our money and our jobs. Now that the geovernment is inforcing something like this there is bound to be some backlash against the minorities.


The problem here is not the backlash that may be involved due to shoehorn tactics in the world of business, but the fact that businesses need this sort of shit done to them in order to get minorities in in the first place. NINA(No Irish Need Apply)-esque views as to whom should join a company still apply (For a somewhat recent case, you can look at Roberts Vs. Texaco), and to not break open these companies so as to allow for fairer staffing practices would probably be worse.

And on to the next quote of interest!

Krylex, incapacitator of motorways wrote:
If you take race completely out of the question, then we have a true level playing field. Until race is no longer a question on applications, we won't.


While this is well and good, one cannot take race out of the selection process short of removing race as an issue one considers. To do that would require rather large amounts of social conditioning in a direction opposite of what groups have been doing for several hundred years. Mind you, I can see how race is becoming less and less of an issue... But still, as it stands there's no real way to have a level field.

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 Post subject: Re: Affirmative Action
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:32 pm 
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Wrin wrote:
Affirmative action, at least here in the states, causes many problems in which a minority applicant gains the grounds to sue if they are not chosen over another applicant with similar qualifications. It also means that businesses with all-minority employees (rarely) gain extra benefits for shunning the racial/ethnic/religious/whatever majority applicants.

Can't resist throwing something in here.

It would be racist if straight/white/male applicants didn't start from an advantaged position in our society. But seeing as they do, compensating for pre-existing bias towards a certain group is the opposite of racism. As Krylex said, if it was truly a level playing field there wouldn't be a need.

This does not mean no affirmative action policies are bullshit. A lot of them, probably most of them, are. But not for the reasons you probably think.

Incidentally, at least in hiring practices, affirmative action is basically impossible to "enforce" from the outside. Except in rare cases, there's basically no way to prove discrimination in hiring. Have i lost jobs for being a gender-destroying freak? Almost undoubtedly. Can i prove that in court? Not likely. It doesn't keep the dishonest peole honest because, well, they're dishonest--and the honest people usually don't need things like that. So i really doubt its effectiveness in levelling the playing field anyway, although it certainly has done something.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:52 am 
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People often say "race is a not an issue easily solved", but I disagree. In a generation or two it will be gone.

That people describe "White" as a race is evidence of that. What country do the "White" people come from?

My Grandparents weren't white. Back then you were Polish, or Irish, English, Scottish, French, German or Slav etc etc..

Certain types of "white" couldn't do certain things. Jews playing golf? never.. Slav's or Irish working in an office building? only as the janitor!

Then by my fathers generation "white" as a concept was coming into being, Irish and Polish jokes become poor taste and used in jest rather than malice. Hell my parents were even allowed to get hitched (much to the anger of my grandparents..mixing races was a sin).

Now today it blurs more. Whats "White"..are mediteranean people white? Pale skinned arabs are identical to white people..are they white or arab? What about light skinned Latinos? Where do you draw the lines?

In another generation or two no one will care anymore.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:05 am 
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Zzarchov wrote:
In another generation or two no one will care anymore.

Hopefully. I got enough lectures as a kid about how I was screwed trying to get a good job as a non-minority.


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 Post subject: That s is showing just how confused I am
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:20 pm 
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I've just had an amazing idea:

Base all benefits on socioeconomic background. Problem solved!

Kestenvarn wrote:
Zzarchov wrote:
In another generation or two no one will care anymore.

Hopefully. I got enough lectures as a kid about how I was screwed trying to get a good job as a non-minority.


Whats the hell? If you go to corporate America, it is whitey central.

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