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What should they have sentenced him?
Death Penalty 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Life in prison 85%  85%  [ 11 ]
Let him go 15%  15%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 13
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 Post subject: Were the Courts right to give the terrorist guy the life sentence?
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 10:49 am 
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I was watching the news for a few minutes and they were talking about the guy who got the life sentence imposed upon him instead of the death penalty. [Moussai]I said to myself, " I wonder what the people in other countries who hate the USA would think of this decision. And this group came to mind!
So

what do you think?
was it the right decision to give him a life sentence?
should they have given him the death penalty?
or should they have released him and treated him as a hero for wanting to kill people in the USA? (sadly, i feel that this answer will be chosen more than once by some members here, and that makes me sad)

Blue Sun Missile wants to know.
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?idq=/ff/story/0001/20060504/1254039201.htm&floc=NW_1-T

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 11:43 am 
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He'll get ripped limb from limb by prison inmates, which is good enough for me.

The guards aren't going to do a thing about it, either.


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 Post subject: Re: Were the Courts right to give the terrorist guy the life sentence?
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 11:45 am 
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Blue Sun Missile wrote:
or should they have released him and treated him as a hero for wanting to kill people in the USA? (sadly, i feel that this answer will be chosen more than once by some members here, and that makes me sad)


:v hurrrr LIEbrals suport terrism


Anyway, since I'm against the death penalty in any situation, letting him rot in prison for the rest of his life is good enough for me!

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 Post subject: Re: Were the Courts right to give the terrorist guy the life sentence?
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 12:08 pm 
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RMG wrote:
Blue Sun Missile wrote:
or should they have released him and treated him as a hero for wanting to kill people in the USA? (sadly, i feel that this answer will be chosen more than once by some members here, and that makes me sad)


:v hurrrr LIEbrals suport terrism


Anyway, since I'm against the death penalty in any situation, letting him rot in prison for the rest of his life is good enough for me!


We sure should let him live and steal money out of people's wallets to pay for his food, shelter, clothing, athletic facilites, television, internets, guards, utilities, etc, etc, etc...


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 12:31 pm 
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If i have heard this correctly, he will stay in his cell for 23 hours a day and get one hour a day to exercise or something like that.
Still better than he deserves.
I was reading that book "Catch me if you can" and he described the prisons in france as being such a horrible experience that if he had stayed more than six months, he probably would have killed himself. I wonder if the prisons there are still like that. And if they are, i also hope that what i have read is true and that france wants to keep him in prison over there.

Im all for keeping him locked up for life, but i dont like the special treatment that he will get in prison.


hurr hurr....whatever

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 12:38 pm 
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Well, seeing as he was aiming to be a martyr, then I'm completely OK with letting him get the opposite. I hope he does get the Pedo Special in prison (Read: What Krylex described), and the word doesn't get out that he was killed for years afterward. So he can die lonely, belittled and completely unknown.

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 4:03 pm 
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krylex wrote:
RMG wrote:
Blue Sun Missile wrote:
or should they have released him and treated him as a hero for wanting to kill people in the USA? (sadly, i feel that this answer will be chosen more than once by some members here, and that makes me sad)


:v hurrrr LIEbrals suport terrism


Anyway, since I'm against the death penalty in any situation, letting him rot in prison for the rest of his life is good enough for me!


We sure should let him live and steal money out of people's wallets to pay for his food, shelter, clothing, athletic facilites, television, internets, guards, utilities, etc, etc, etc...


<a href="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7">Executions cost more than life sentences.</a>

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 4:27 pm 
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Tossrock wrote:
krylex wrote:
RMG wrote:
Blue Sun Missile wrote:
or should they have released him and treated him as a hero for wanting to kill people in the USA? (sadly, i feel that this answer will be chosen more than once by some members here, and that makes me sad)


:v hurrrr LIEbrals suport terrism


Anyway, since I'm against the death penalty in any situation, letting him rot in prison for the rest of his life is good enough for me!


We sure should let him live and steal money out of people's wallets to pay for his food, shelter, clothing, athletic facilites, television, internets, guards, utilities, etc, etc, etc...


<a href="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7">Executions cost more than life sentences.</a>


That's death penalty programs that are inefficiently ran and don't adequately represent properly instituted programs.

That also doesn't account for appeal plans and things like that for people who aren't on death row. A lifetime of appeals cost much more than a few years. Get some better data than that, and we'll talk.


Also, a great deal of those numbers are out of date. If the death penalty in Texas was still the same as in 1988, it would have been abolished. We don't have one of the best economies in the country by running a shoddy system (even though parts are shoddy as hell).


Those are also costs of trials for capital cases and not the punishment itself. If they had more regulation on the cases, or perhaps less in certain situations, the cost would be less.


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 5:45 pm 
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Ryven wrote:
Well, seeing as he was aiming to be a martyr, then I'm completely OK with letting him get the opposite. I hope he does get the Pedo Special in prison (Read: What Krylex described), and the word doesn't get out that he was killed for years afterward. So he can die lonely, belittled and completely unknown.


Yeah, from what I've heard, US prisons are even worse than the ones we have in Queensland (and ours are reportedly pretty shit) and I doubt he'd be very popular with is fellow inmates, particularly after some of the remarks he made in court. I also think that the issue of making him a martyr is an important consideration. For Christ's sake, don't give people a reason to say "He died for Islam" when he's really just a common criminal and don't sink to his level.

I mostly oppose the death penalty in general on policy grounds, because the fact is that innocent people do get convicted and while you can let a person out of prison, you can't bring them back from the dead. And no, I am not saying that I have any reason to believe that Moussaoui is innocent.

That said, I wouldn't exactly have shed any tears if they had decided to execute him.

And I too would like some more information on the 'death penalty is more expensive' issue. I hear it bandied about a lot in discussions about capital punishment, but I have never seen any data to back it up.

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 Post subject: Arguing drunk YES
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:05 pm 
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krylex wrote:
Tossrock wrote:
<a href="http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7">Executions cost more than life sentences.</a>
Blah blah blah get some better data bloo bloo bloo...


I think we should keep Moussaoui around for two reasons. First, he's practically on our side. The only pertinent information the government has on Moussaoui shows that he went to Malaysia and possibly spoke with with Al Qaeda operatives who provided him with money and sent him to the US. Once here, he failed two flight schools through his own sheer incompetence and then got arrested for being a spooky A-rab.

The scoreboard:

TERRISTS: -$20,000 to $100,000

MURICA: Break even.

My second argument is that he's just too darn cute to kill. Despite being a complete ineffectual boob he still managed to disrupt the DoJ's dog-and-pony show at every turn. Hopefully his precedent of requesting subpoena on persons being interrogated by top-secret government agencies in undisclosed locations for undisclosed lengths of time shall live on to shape the future of our democracy. And oh lord the quotes just speak for themselves.

"The fundamental U.S. right to an impartial jury guaranteed by the Sixth Amendment also necessarily includes a jury composed of the defenders peers.' Brown v. Kelly, 1992. I am sure that the government will be delighted to bring 12 Talebans from Cuba."
- Zacarias Moussaoui, loveable joker.

"The US government must withdraw all charges against because it knows that I was under FBI surveillance and what was my activity in the US and abroad."
- Zacarias Moussaoui, fervent believer in the Constitution.

"Motion to STOP THE FBI TO TEMPER WITH EVIDENCE AND TO HAVE HUSSEIN AL ATTAS AND ALI MUKHRAM CALLED AS WITNESS. Immediate Hearing. ALLAH U AKBAR. THE FBI NOW IS HIDDING CONCRETE EVIDENCE OF THEIR COVER UP OPERATION BEFORE SEPT 11 AGAINST ME AND THE 19 HIJACKER: THE BUG ELECTRIC FAN PLANTED BY THE FBI."
- Zacarias Moussaoui, raving bugfuck


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 Post subject: Re: Arguing drunk YES
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:13 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:14 pm 
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krylex wrote:
That's death penalty programs that are inefficiently ran and don't adequately represent properly instituted programs.

That also doesn't account for appeal plans and things like that for people who aren't on death row. A lifetime of appeals cost much more than a few years. Get some better data than that, and we'll talk.


Also, a great deal of those numbers are out of date. If the death penalty in Texas was still the same as in 1988, it would have been abolished. We don't have one of the best economies in the country by running a shoddy system (even though parts are shoddy as hell).


Those are also costs of trials for capital cases and not the punishment itself. If they had more regulation on the cases, or perhaps less in certain situations, the cost would be less.


Um, did you read all the articles linked from my original link? Many of them DO take into account a life time of appeals. And much of the data is "out of date"? 2005, 2004, 2003, 2001, 2002, 1993, 2000, 2003, 1988 and 1992 are the dates of the various studies and articles linked.

I have this feeling you scrolled right to the bottom.

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:28 pm 
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Tossrock wrote:
Um, did you read all the articles linked from my original link?


I really need to find a skin that shows links a bit more clearly. All I saw was the text of the post. :oops:

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:46 pm 
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Tossrock wrote:
krylex wrote:
That's death penalty programs that are inefficiently ran and don't adequately represent properly instituted programs.

That also doesn't account for appeal plans and things like that for people who aren't on death row. A lifetime of appeals cost much more than a few years. Get some better data than that, and we'll talk.


Also, a great deal of those numbers are out of date. If the death penalty in Texas was still the same as in 1988, it would have been abolished. We don't have one of the best economies in the country by running a shoddy system (even though parts are shoddy as hell).


Those are also costs of trials for capital cases and not the punishment itself. If they had more regulation on the cases, or perhaps less in certain situations, the cost would be less.


Um, did you read all the articles linked from my original link? Many of them DO take into account a life time of appeals. And much of the data is "out of date"? 2005, 2004, 2003, 2001, 2002, 1993, 2000, 2003, 1988 and 1992 are the dates of the various studies and articles linked.

I have this feeling you scrolled right to the bottom.


Yes I did read through all of it. With the exception of a few external links, just about all of the information is coming from the orginization itself.

Like I said, there are a few cases that the site is correct, like New Jersey who hasn't actually executed anyone, but the rest of the site seems more like careful manipulation of the numbers, and any site that is staunchly anti-death penalty, as that site clearly is (which I gathered from reading other parts of the site) is going to make sure their case looks like it is the best.

Non-partial sources that have a broader scope than a few defunct systems would be a much better source, and I haven't found any non-partial sources coming from either side, so I must use logic to make my decisions, and from that I conclude:

#1 40-80 years in prison includes: (Assuming average lifetime of an inmate is 40-80 years)
Appeals all the way to the supreme court are available.
40-80 years of Food and shelter
40-80 years of Guard costs
40-80 years of utility costs (including electicity, water, sewage, gas [in some places I'm sure])
40-80 years of healthcare (may not be the best, but they won't let anyone sit there and die)

#2 Now, with the death penalty:
Appeals all the way to the supreme court are available.
10-20 years of food and shelter
10-20 years of Guard costs
10-20 years of utilities
10-20 years of healthcare
1 execution (lethal injections themselves aren't that expensive)


Now, in a decently run system, how could #2 possibly cost more than #1?


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:55 pm 
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Also, Tossykins, here's a link with a bit more research than your DPIC which is in staunch opposition to what they say : <a href="http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/DP.html">Link!</a>


I'm not saying that it isn't possibly somewhat biased as well, but don't assume that I haven't been looking around when I discredit your source.


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 11:26 pm 
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krylex wrote:
Yes I did read through all of it. With the exception of a few external links, just about all of the information is coming from the orginization itself.

Like I said, there are a few cases that the site is correct, like New Jersey who hasn't actually executed anyone, but the rest of the site seems more like careful manipulation of the numbers, and any site that is staunchly anti-death penalty, as that site clearly is (which I gathered from reading other parts of the site) is going to make sure their case looks like it is the best.


The second one comes directly from the Tennesse office of the comptroller of the treasury.

The third one, while the direct link takes you to a portion of the site, is actually a summary of another report directly commissioned by the state of Kansas, done by an outside auditing company, whose report you can find linked from the summary page.

The fourth comes from the National Bureau of Economic Research.

The sixth comes from Duke University.

We'll call the first, fifth, seventh, eighth, nineth and tenth invalid, either because they don't have directly linked sources or because the site that hosts them is too pro-life. Even throwing those out, the body of evidence presented is sufficiently large, and sufficiently well researched as to be conclusive. NONE of it comes from the site itself, I honestly don't know where you're getting this.

This is opposed to the prodeathpenalty.com site you linked, which is ENTIRELY original, unreviewed research and projections, as opposed to all of the above which are actual studies conducted on existing systems, which all found the same thing. Conjecture by some armchair death-penalty supporter means very little compared to hard numbers generated by noted studies.

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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 1:01 am 
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krylex wrote:
Your source is biased! Look at my biased source instead!


:)

That said, the whole arguement about life sentences being cheaper to carry out than the death penalty has never really been one that's sat well with me, since it seems too much like assigning a cash value to a human life, and that in some theoretical universe where people could be executed on the cheap (Pro bono appeals lawyers? I dunno.), it'd be okay to do it.

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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 5:57 am 
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RMG wrote:
krylex wrote:
Your source is biased! Look at my biased source instead!


:)

That said, the whole arguement about life sentences being cheaper to carry out than the death penalty has never really been one that's sat well with me, since it seems too much like assigning a cash value to a human life, and that in some theoretical universe where people could be executed on the cheap (Pro bono appeals lawyers? I dunno.), it'd be okay to do it.


I wasn't saying that was my only source I had read. I specifically said all the sources I had found were biased in one way or another, but I was just listing that to give an example.

I actually waded through the FBI UCR and looked at the numbers for 2004 (2005 was still preliminary). The 0.06% calculated is still about true today. Of all the murders committed in 2004, only 0.0077% resulted in someone recieving a death penalty. We handed out 125 DP sentences.



And Tossy, I said that the one's that list the DP as more costly are inefficiently run and stupidly maintained. There's no reason NJ should have spent the money they have other than ridiculously bloated bueracracy and doesn't really have the capital punishment at issue.

The site I linked also does cite all their sources, but they are fuckers and don't actually link to anything making you do your own research. I was just posting it so you could see the other side of the spectrum as well.


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 11:19 pm 
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Weld a collar to his neck and chain him up at ground zero and have a press conference. Turn a blind eye and come back 24 hours later. That, or put him in an automated torture machine designed to keep him alive and in unending agony for the next thousand years.

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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 12:03 am 
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krylex wrote:
And Tossy, I said that the one's that list the DP as more costly are inefficiently run and stupidly maintained. There's no reason NJ should have spent the money they have other than ridiculously bloated bueracracy and doesn't really have the capital punishment at issue.


Well, I only initially posted what I did in response to your "we shouldn't have to pay for them" comment. The issue seemed to be cost, so I attempted to address that issue.

The morality issue is a different one.

krylex wrote:
The site I linked also does cite all their sources, but they are fuckers and don't actually link to anything making you do your own research. I was just posting it so you could see the other side of the spectrum as well.


Yes, I'd already seen it, but dismissed it as propaganda. I think a study from Duke or the NBER is about as good as you're going to get.

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