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What should they have sentenced him?
Death Penalty 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Life in prison 85%  85%  [ 11 ]
Let him go 15%  15%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 13
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 6:19 am 
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Labrat wrote:
Weld a collar to his neck and chain him up at ground zero and have a press conference. Turn a blind eye and come back 24 hours later. That, or put him in an automated torture machine designed to keep him alive and in unending agony for the next thousand years.

The only way to win a war against another culture is to prove time and time again that not only are you a more powerful, moral and greater culture but also that you are willing to lose it all in order to preserve it instead of strip it of its greatness in order to win.
Seriously, this type of crap "let everyone rape him to death, hur hur hur" is just childish and shows a lack of intellegence when it comes to dealing with a terrorist threat. The problem with American policy right now is that they are looking at Terrorism as a military exercise instead of a Law and Order issue. You beat Terrorism by putting cops on the streets not sending an army half-way around the world to blow up Afghanistan again.

What you should do instead is treat him in the same way you'd treat a guy who'd just done some stupid crime and got caught. Minimal media coverage, no giant world-wide attention campaigns, just let him get caught, arrested, tried and imprisoned like every other criminal, turning things like this into a spectacle is stupid.

Terrorism is the ultimate Attention Whore. You feed it and it grows.

Actor.

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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 9:41 pm 
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Personally, I would be content to have America continue as a big, scary new Roman Empire. I have no problem with that. They kept peace in their core quite successfuly most of the time by making sure all fighting took place way out in the boondocks. And, of course, mass retaliation for anything done against them.

I don't know if its feasable to do this the majority of the time, but I'm fine with it if it is.

The punishments I advised are what I would like to administer under an ideal situation.
In practical terms, I want the bastard to just vanish off the map without terrorists or media the wiser.

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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 2:12 am 
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To be honest, I fully support this guy getting Life. The prisoners will punish him better than the government could, and this way, we get plausible deniability. ;)


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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 11:05 am 
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[cough]generalpopulation[/cough]
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Labrat's friends can't run away, as they are only the skins of the people he's drowned in his own semen, carefully stitched together and stuffed with cooking chocolate.


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 Post subject: seriously though you're inhuman i hate you
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 12:08 pm 
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He's going to ADX Florence, where he will be kept in 24/7 solitary confinement - typical for a supermax facility. For the other prisoners to even lay a finger on him would take both serious corruption on the part of the guards and superhuman planning and effort on the part of the prisoners. Sorry to ruin your retarded fantasies guys :-/


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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 6:24 pm 
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You know, on reflection, that's even better. Shove him in a little box and forget him, and let everyone get on with there lives while he rots away, unregarded in jail.

Also, I notice he doesn't seem to be crowing quite so loud anymore.

>>News Article<<

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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:46 am 
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I honestly don't give a damn what happens to him as long as he's not a problem anymore. Who really gives a shit if he's dead or locked in a box for 24 hours?

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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 2:07 pm 
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Yeah. Its just not practical to march into battle using a man's flayed skin as a standard anymore.

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Labrat's friends can't run away, as they are only the skins of the people he's drowned in his own semen, carefully stitched together and stuffed with cooking chocolate.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:02 pm 
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I'd like to see a prison facility where they place the prisoner in a nine by nine by nine steel box, weld the doors shut, then seal it in a sarcophagus of three foot thick concrete.

There'd be utility lines run to and from it to keep the inmate alive, air, ventilation, water, sewage, food (in the form of a nutritionally balanced paste), electricity for a single light bulb lit precisely from 9:AM to 9:PM, and an intercom. The prisoner has no clothes. There's a flat steel plate for sleeping and a metal donut welded to the wall for sitting on while taking a dump. Once a day, a sprinkler head in the ceiling goes on and he can shower for 15 minutes with just body temp water. This will have the simultaneous effect of flushing his waste on down the sewage line. the whole thing will be kept at a constant temperature of 80 F.

That's it. That's how you perform the functions of life from the day you're planted until the day the IR sensor says there's no body heat in the cell any more. You eat your paste, drink your water, shit and piss. You want to stop eating and starve, your call. You want to stop drinking and dehydrate, your call. You want to stand on the toilet and swan dive into the floor to break your own neck, your call. Diseases can be treated by injecting meds into the food line. Medical conditions needing surgery, you're S.O.L.

The kicker is, that's not truely that much better than prisoners in a supermax like Moussaui actually get. You saying that's preferable to death? Try living it for a while. Moussaui's gonna be trying to find a way to off himself soon enough.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:05 pm 
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Cathy344 wrote:
I'd like to see a prison facility where they place the prisoner in a nine by nine by nine steel box, weld the doors shut, then seal it in a sarcophagus of three foot thick concrete.

There'd be utility lines run to and from it to keep the inmate alive, air, ventilation, water, sewage, food (in the form of a nutritionally balanced paste), electricity for a single light bulb lit precisely from 9:AM to 9:PM, and an intercom. The prisoner has no clothes. There's a flat steel plate for sleeping and a metal donut welded to the wall for sitting on while taking a dump. Once a day, a sprinkler head in the ceiling goes on and he can shower for 15 minutes with just body temp water. This will have the simultaneous effect of flushing his waste on down the sewage line. the whole thing will be kept at a constant temperature of 80 F.

That's it. That's how you perform the functions of life from the day you're planted until the day the IR sensor says there's no body heat in the cell any more. You eat your paste, drink your water, shit and piss. You want to stop eating and starve, your call. You want to stop drinking and dehydrate, your call. You want to stand on the toilet and swan dive into the floor to break your own neck, your call. Diseases can be treated by injecting meds into the food line. Medical conditions needing surgery, you're S.O.L.

The kicker is, that's not truely that much better than prisoners in a supermax like Moussaui actually get. You saying that's preferable to death? Try living it for a while. Moussaui's gonna be trying to find a way to off himself soon enough.

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Geneva. Convention.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:31 pm 
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Doesn't that only apply to prisoners of war? Moussaui's a common criminal.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:36 pm 
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It depends on whether you count him as a civilian prisoner and the war on terrorism to be an actual war.

But I suppose I really should have said Article Three of the European Convention of Human Rights. And the Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution made in 1787.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:46 pm 
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"Cruel and unusual punishment"

Also I think Jesus had some strong words about revenge, and how, like, you shouldn't do it. Or some such.

Prison should be about preventing criminals from committing more crimes, and HOPEFULLY also about changing them as people from the kind who commit crimes into productive members of society.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:49 pm 
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Moussaui wasn't even properly involved. He got life for withholding infomation that he may or may not have had.

Personally, Cathy, I think that attitude is deplorable.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:56 pm 
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The 8th Am. holds greater sway in my heart than the Geneva Convention. Still, I'm not willing to grant our present state of "war" as a real war. The federal govt's claimed too much of our liberties under the aegis of the War Powers Act as it is. If the "war" in question isn't continually involving gunfire and explosions on American soil, then war powers have no place limitting my liberties. Or the liberties of foreign nationals captured on American soil, even if their goals are war-like. The man was tried in a civil, not a military court. That right there negates any claim he might have to the protections of the Geneva convention. (Plus, he was tried in America, not Europe, and I've never read the European Convention on Human Rights, so I can't really speak intelligently toward that.)

Cruel and unusual. What he would have done to innocent people was pretty cruel and unusual. We seem to be living in pretty cruel and unusual times. Frankly, keeping these guys alive seems pretty cruel and unusual to me. Mass murderers allowed to live? When that gets to be the usual, book me a flight to Saturn, I want out of here. My sense of propriety would rather they be executed by the most expeditious means at our disposal. It's my sense of revenge that wants to see them locked up, unmartyred, isolated, to stew in their own news-bite-free universes.

And Jesus... I'll bite my atheistic tongue on that.

Conspircy both before and after the fact for an atrocity on that scale? I'd still say that warrants the death penalty.

As for prison as a tool of reformation, if that's what you're hanging your hat on, then you must admit that there are people in this world so corrupt and so foul as to be beyond reformation within their expected lifetimes by the tools we have at our disposal. Our prison system therefore has no place for them, and they should be removed from it. Since they can't go back to society either, having been removed from it to prison, the only place left to remove them to is the great beyond. Houses of correction are no places for the uncorrectible. Pentetentiaries are no places for the unrepentent.

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Last edited by Cathy344 on Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:01 pm 
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OmnipotentEntity wrote:
Moussaui wasn't even properly involved. He got life for withholding infomation that he may or may not have had.

Personally, Cathy, I think that attitude is deplorable.


Have you heard the latest gestapo joke? No? *SMACK!* VE KNOW YOU ARE LYING!

... Seriously, have you heard the latest Gestapo joke? *SMACK!* WHO HAVE YOU BEEN TALKING TO?

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Honestly though, the whole thing is buggered. The situation is fucked either way, though; if he dies, a moral victory is claimed both ways. If he's jailed, moral victory is claimed both ways. Ah, international politics.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:01 pm 
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The matter itself has a lot to do with the idea of reciprocity and the idea that in International Justice the more poweful and influencial states should be seen to set an example that they would want other countries who have perhaps transgressed against said law and ideas of 'humanity' to follow.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:14 pm 
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He was a terrorist flunkie. He couldn't terrorize himself out of a paper bag. Sure he was a bad guy, but he didn't do anything. He was arrested and charged with withholding information, but there are two problems with it:

1) Moussaui probably didn't know jack shit about 9/11 until it happened. He flunked out of flight school, and honestly, if you were a terrorist leader, would you start blabbing your mouths off that early to people who you weren't sure would make the cut?

More likely than not Moussaui played up his connection with Al Qaeda to make himself famous, and it worked because we're so eager and ready to blame someone. BTW, Al Qaeda officially denied his role in 9/11.

2) If you remember, we already knew that bin Ladin was planning attacks in the US. The administration ignored it. Wrote it off.

Now, putting these together. How would have Moussaui turning State's change anything? It's overwhelmingly likely that nothing would have changed either way.

Now, with that said. Cathy, if you want to be cruel and unusual then you are quite simply debasing yourself. You should treat even your most hated enemy with the respect that you so dearly believe he does not deserve. Doing otherwise is simply proving that we are just as extremist as they are. I think as America, the supposed-land-of-the-free, we should hold ourselves and others to a higher standard of civility than the jihadists. Which you seem to not be doing. Shame on you.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:17 pm 
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I enjoy it when something I just posted is vindicated so well Omni. Thank you for understanding international politics. And for wording it better than I have the ability to.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:36 pm 
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I'm sorry, I seem to be missing something here.

Why would it be okay to take someone's life when the only crime they have committed is withholding information?

In fact, I have on idea why life in solitary confinement is seen as an appropriate response either.

Gaol can be seen to be used in one of a number of ways: a deterrent, a punishment, or an avenue for rehabilitation

Lets think about this:
Deterrent: If this man wanted to a martyr, then he's willing to give his life to his cause (assuming he was to be directly involved), and that doesn't necessarily mean dying. Lifetime in prison makes one just as effectively a firebrand for a cause. Hardly a deterrent.
Rehabilitation: We can just chuck this one right out, I'm pretty sure no one's going to try and teach this man to better himself, and chose a life outside of crime.
Punishment: Ah, here's the rub. It's punishment, that we're looking at. So, he's being punished by spending his life shut in a tiny box with essentially no outside contact for the rest of his days. For withholding information, possibly being part of a plot (but no one is really sure) and apparently being a raving nutcase during his trial.

Can anyone else say Kangaroo court? It seems as though both sides were utterly batshit in this trial.

Bravo America. Bravo.

I am actually entirely surprised that he wasn't executed.

On a vaguely related point, why the fuck hasn't the USA ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child? Jesus, all it does is grant children basic fucking rights! Let's see what GWB's response is:

George W. Bush wrote:
"The Convention on the Rights of the Child may be a positive tool for promoting child welfare for those countries that have adopted it. But we believe the text goes too far when it asserts entitlements based on economic, social and cultural rights. ... The human rights-based approach ... poses significant problems as used in this text."


The real reason? The USA wanted to execute 16 year olds. Seriously, why did it take until last year for something like Roper v. Simmons to occur? Prior to that, anyone over 16 could be executed. And it wasn't until 2002 that the Supreme Court stated that a mentally retarded adult couldn't be executed. Congratulations, even fucking Bosnia does better than you.


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