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 Post subject: Birth Control
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:39 am 
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I just found this article on the BBC news page, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4425603.stm, detailing how pharmacists across the country are exercising a legal ability not to fill prescriptions for birth control or other contraceptives. Is this law constitutional? Once a person has a prescription, does the pharmacist then have the right to deny filling it, sometimes even lecturing the patient about their moral choices? Or is that something that should have been covered prior to the prescription being written, either at the doctor's office or at a Planned Parenthood or other similar facility?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:19 pm 
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Constitutional: yes.
Right: no.

I mean, what if the prescription is for a medical problem, or a complication of a pregnancy?

Then again, a pharmacy is a place of business, it's up to the owner of a business whether or not to do business with a particular person. They are under no legal obligation to do so. But that still doesn't make it right.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:42 pm 
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A license is required to be a pharmacist, just like in any medical profession. If a pharmacist refuses to fill out prescriptions then that person is not doing their job properly. If a pharmacist won't do their job properly then that person's license should be revoked.

I don't care if a pharmacists wants to lecture me but I don't have to listen to it and I am just as free to tell the that person to go fellate a horse and mind his own business and give me my goddamn pills. If the pharmacist gets his catholic friends in on it at tells them so and so is a fornicating heathen then that pharmacist is in violation of the hippocratic oath.("I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know.")

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:30 pm 
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Don't bring the Oath into this:

The part that is relevant:

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.


Anyways, pharmacists do not have the right to diagnose a patient. That is the doctor's job. However, they do techically as a business have a right to not fill a prescreption. We as consumers have the right not to shop there. If the mom and pop shop won't fill it, go to Wal Mart. I can garuantee you they will. If there isn't a walmart within an hour of where you live, wait a few years.

Now, to these pharmacists, I pose the question: Why do you not give out such things? Do you rather like to see a pregnant 14 year old? I know thats not what they want, and they would prefer abstinance, but that is an ideal for an ideal world which we do not live in.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:49 pm 
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krylex wrote:
Don't bring the Oath into this:

The part that is relevant:

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.


Anyways, pharmacists do not have the right to diagnose a patient. That is the doctor's job. However, they do techically as a business have a right to not fill a prescreption. We as consumers have the right not to shop there. If the mom and pop shop won't fill it, go to Wal Mart. I can garuantee you they will. If there isn't a walmart within an hour of where you live, wait a few years.


These generally aren't businesses deciding not to fill perscriptions, it's the employees acting alone. The Christian Right wants to make it illegal for businesses to fire people for refusing to fill birth control perscriptions-- in effect, taking even more control out of the hands of the business.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:20 pm 
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See, I looked at it as a mom and pop pharmacy owned by the pharmacist refusing to fill the order.

Individuals have a right to refuse to do their job. Doing so merits consequences from their employer.

I can say fuck it and not work at all, but I will get fired.

If Joe the pharmacist, employed by Tom the pharmacy owner refuses, he should be fired. He's not doing his job. He should be terminated.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:44 pm 
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krylex wrote:
See, I looked at it as a mom and pop pharmacy owned by the pharmacist refusing to fill the order.

Individuals have a right to refuse to do their job. Doing so merits consequences from their employer.

I can say fuck it and not work at all, but I will get fired.

If Joe the pharmacist, employed by Tom the pharmacy owner refuses, he should be fired. He's not doing his job. He should be terminated.

I remember this discussion from earlier in the month on irc. This was the link brought up.

The argument seemed to revolve around employees of corporate pharmacies not supplying the drugs that the company stocks. In that case the employee should be fired for whatever reason the company comes up with. However, if the company decides were to decide not to stock them for whatever reason they come up with, then I'd have no issue. Same with private pharmacies, they're a business and have a right to not stock a specific drug.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:52 pm 
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krylex wrote:
Don't bring the Oath into this:

The part that is relevant:

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.


Iffy.

Whether or not the morning after pill is a "deadly drug" depends on if a fertilized egg is a person. We must remember though that a good number of fertilized eggs never makes it to conception for various reasons, one of them being that they sometimes get flushed out during menstruation.

Of course whether or not a fertilized egg is a person is somewhat irrelevent since the morning after pill is a legal form of contraception. Medical science and the law obviously do not consider a fertilized egg to be a person and it's not what we are debating in this thread anyway.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:16 pm 
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An abortive remedy.

That includes anything that would prevent conception to birth.

Morning after pills fall into that category.

Birth control pills loosely can as well.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:59 pm 
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Err, I should have mentioned that the linked page was of the old oath. The current oath is just a hop, skip and a jump from that page. It has no mention of "abortive remedies" and they don't have to swear to "Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses" either. A lot has changed since Hippocrates was alive.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:33 pm 
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krylex wrote:
Anyways, pharmacists do not have the right to diagnose a patient. That is the doctor's job. However, they do techically as a business have a right to not fill a prescreption. We as consumers have the right not to shop there. If the mom and pop shop won't fill it, go to Wal Mart. I can garuantee you they will. If there isn't a walmart within an hour of where you live, wait a few years.


What about pharmacists who, once you hand them the prescription, refuse to fill it and refuse to return it?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:04 pm 
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That would be illegal I'd imagine.

Theft and Reckless Disregard for Human Life.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:26 pm 
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OmnipotentEntity wrote:
That would be illegal I'd imagine.

Theft and Reckless Disregard for Human Life.


You might be able to make a case for theft, I guess, though they would probably claim Good Samaritan. Also, you'd have to prove what they stole. You gave them the prescription willingly, they have nothing compelling them to give it back to you. Even if they did, it's a piece of paper which has no inherent value. Either way, you're not going to be able to get much out of that direction. And as for Reckless Disregard, unless you could prove that you need the birth control to survive, complications arising from giving birth and all, you'd have no case.

Not saying I agree with the practice. I think that, once the prescription has been written, the pharmacist has the obligation to fill it. It's their job. They knew when they chose it that they would have to fill prescriptions for contraceptives, because in this country it's legal to take them. Not to mention more responsible.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:35 am 
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Jasper wrote:
What about pharmacists who, once you hand them the prescription, refuse to fill it and refuse to return it?


Revoking of license and I'm sure there's a lawsuit in there somewhere.

I'd like to amend what I said earlier. I was clouded by rage over the christian right shoving their morality down other people's throats (again). If a pharmacist does not stock certain prescriptions (for whatever reason), they are obliged to atleast refer you to a pharmacy that does. If they refuse to do that, then that's when they should lose their license. I hold pharmacists in the same regard as other medical professionals, not just regular shopkeepers.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:25 am 
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Not that it does any good, but you can also file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau.

Also, while it may not be possible to charge the pharmacist who refuses to return a perscription with criminal theft, you could probably file and win a civil suit claiming punative damages (cost of going to the doctor to get the perscription filled) plus court costs, plus emotional damage.

Hmm. If they stock condoms but refuse to fill a perscription for birth control, you might be able to claim discrimination, or claim that their "morality" defense is non-viable based on the fact that they carry other products which perform the same function.

... Of course, my solution is just not to fuck people who can get me pregnant, and it works pretty well. (Plus, i save the cost of birth control)

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:03 am 
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Honestly, if they took my prescription and refused to give it back, then I suppose it'd be within my rights to go over the counter and *take* it back.

Good point there, Emy. Although, their rationale for not giving people the Pill is because they believe it actually causes abortion by "not allowing the egg to attach." But we are talking of crazy people here.

Another issue: What if a woman lives in a small town where there is no Rite-Aid and her local pharmicist refuses to give her the Pill? That'd be a few levels of "pain in the ass." Although, I get my pills sent to me by mail, which is an option - but should it reallly be neccesary to mail order something as simple as this?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:33 am 
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When people bitch about abortion, i can at least see what they're about from both sides. The people for abortions and those against. But saying that birth control is wrong because "it causes an abortion by not allowing the egg to hatch" is just...stupid. I'm sorry, i think it's a ridiculous argument.

Catholics and the like wanna not use birth control, fine-and-dandy by me. That's your choice for you and you do as you like. But when that choice is forced on me i get irritated. Whether i was going to do it in the first place or not is irrelevant. It's like those people who refuse medical treatment because they believe god will heal them suddenly making it so no one can ever go to a hospital or seek medical aid. Stop it. If i wanna take birth control, i will. Just call me a godless heathen, inform me that i'm going to hell, and gimme my prescription.

[/rant]

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:17 am 
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Darkened Abyss wrote:
When people bitch about abortion, i can at least see what they're about from both sides. The people for abortions and those against. But saying that birth control is wrong because "it causes an abortion by not allowing the egg to hatch" is just...stupid. I'm sorry, i think it's a ridiculous argument.

Catholics and the like wanna not use birth control, fine-and-dandy by me. That's your choice for you and you do as you like. But when that choice is forced on me i get irritated. Whether i was going to do it in the first place or not is irrelevant. It's like those people who refuse medical treatment because they believe god will heal them suddenly making it so no one can ever go to a hospital or seek medical aid. Stop it. If i wanna take birth control, i will. Just call me a godless heathen, inform me that i'm going to hell, and gimme my prescription.

[/rant]


Well, Catholics have a somewhat less holy reason for not wanting people to use birth control, but they cover it well by claiming that it's against God's will. These are the kinds of people who would say that masturbation (male, since I'm pretty sure women don't lose eggs by doing it) is a sin because it also interferes with the creation process. And while that's a very fundamentalist viewpoint, it's also their beliefs, not crazy or stupid. That said, such beliefs should preclude a person from becoming a pharmacist, not preclude a pharmacist from doing their job.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:50 pm 
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my two cents

If is a teen, they go to the docters with the parents, or will a least have parentel ok...

if they are 18+ they are by law a adult, and i they wish to do this, it there own call...

Now i could see a pharmacist, asking for a adult to be there to sign off for the pills, for anyone under 18. I can see tha with any medician, actully isnt it law for anyone under 18 cant buy Rx med's?

But still i would like to see a pharmacist deny a 25-30+ year old woman he/she is not going to fill there prescription. if thus said woman does not flay the flesh off this poor guy, she will take her bussness elsewhere

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:55 am 
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This is a problem, Taluna, in a lot of smaller towns with only one pharmacy.

There's a reason there is a higher teen pregnancy and birth rate in small towns than large.


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