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 Post subject: Euthanizing deformed Babies?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:21 am 
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...just read it...

I dont approve of this. One you start, then the line get blurrier and blurrier...

The person who sent me this link sent it with the line "this is how the nazi's started"

Your thoughts?

John
wants to know what you people think of this.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:57 pm 
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Many, many, many cultures have done this- the best example I can think of right now is the Spartans.

Personally, I feel that if the child is permanently disabled such that it won't be able to offer a genuine contribution to society (And I feel we can create some sort of line here- Terri Schiavo is a good example of this), the family should have the option of euthanasia. However, this should not be something we take lightly and we would require specific controls to ensure that the family 1.) Will be mentally stable after the fact, 2.) That the child can *not* get better due to its condition, and 3.) That the child, through these defects, cannot fill a positive role in society.

It may seem ultimately cruel, but having a child who is mentally deficient is *not* cheap (Emotionally or economically) for any party involved. In the end, cutting one's losses at an early state is more efficient and probably less cruel for the child in the first place.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:35 pm 
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I agree with Rusty whole heartedly. There's a difference between giving a kid with a few disadvantages a chance at life, and prolonging a painful, oblivious existance. Many people are so concerned with the quantity of life that they forget to factor in the quality of life, for all parties involved.

It's funny, there's a similar conversation going on in the Politics forum in DA.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:11 am 
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The only person who should have the right to decide whether life is good in spite of a person's individual circumstances or whether they would be better off dead is that person. Period.

If they decide the latter once they grow up, suicide is almost always an option.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:44 pm 
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That's just it- what if the person can't decide whether they live or die? What if said person is locked in a toddler-like state mentally for their entire lives? How do you deal with that? Or what about a child that will never gain motor function?


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 Post subject: Re: Euthanizing deformed Babies?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:18 am 
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Blue Sun Missile wrote:
The person who sent me this link sent it with the line "this is how the nazi's started"


This is not true.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:54 am 
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The Nazi's started because a whole shitload of discontented Germans were told that they could have their glory days back and give those that they felt wronged them the biggest asswhooping in history... so long as they did whatever the snappy dressers told them. Its the story of the ages and its played out a couple times a century, every century.

The whole jewish thing was an afterthought, a sidenote on their agenda. It was a convenient group to demonize and blame all the problems of the world on and it had absolutely nothing to do with the current issue. Is anyone hoping euthanized babies will satisfy the witchhunts of the nation or keep anyone with bread and circuses? Is is going to galvinize the nation towards some goal that requires a world of sacrifice on the part of the citizenry? No? Then this is in no way how the Nazis started.



There are three different rationalizations that I can see for euthanasia of a child. The first is that the child would know no pleasure in this world, that they would be suffering and trapped in a crippled prison of bone and flesh. In such a case, it would be a mercy to bring a sharp knife across their throats before even the slightest glimmer of awareness enters their eyes.

The second is that the child born is without mind or the capability of developing a mind. Being a brainless husk, there really isn't a child there. It is a collection of organs and meat, that is all. There is nothing to keep alive and so there is no harm disposing of it.

The third case is touchier. The child could develop a mind and could find enjoyment in life... however they could never contribute to society in any meaningful way. They will never have a mind beyond that of a small child or are so physically crippled that they will never rise from bed. The Spartens would drop them from their cliff in this case with the following rationalization: If they are good Spartans, they would take their own lives here and now for the good of the people. You would merely be helping them along. If they are not good Spartans, and are willing to sap the life from the people and give nothing back, then you should also have no problem killing them. After all, they would not be good Spartans.


I only have trouble with the third. And even then, its only trouble... as in I would be having difficulty doing so myself. I would accept others performing the third without ill feelings, actually feeling that they are stronger men and women than I no matter what choice they make.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:47 am 
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I am in favor of euthanizing Labby's avatar. JESUS that's scary.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:04 am 
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I personally think Labrat's avatar is neat. Conan O'Brien is (one of) my heroes.

Euthanasia is more common than people think. It happens in nature all the time. Birds push chicks out of their nest if they sense deformity, ect. (I'll find a link when I'm not so fucking tired.)

One also has to stop and wonder that maybe the reason the numbers of deformed or retarded children is because we let them live and have children of their own? I know a family of nothing but retarded people. Their mom and dad are mentally impaired, and so are both of their boys. The mother and father are so impaired that they don't work, but live off of government funds, as do both of the boys. At the risk of sounding like a horrible person, I personally think that mentally impaird people such as this should be sterilized, so they can still have sex, but not procreate.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:14 pm 
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It makes sense to me. I don't see what is cruel or inhumane about such a thought.
I don't really see such an epidemic of fucking mutants, however. People with too many things wrong with them tend to be self limiting, being incapable of attracting a mate or physically unable to carry child.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:50 am 
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Rusty wrote:
It may seem ultimately cruel, but having a child who is mentally deficient is *not* cheap (Emotionally or economically) for any party involved. In the end, cutting one's losses at an early state is more efficient and probably less cruel for the child in the first place.

I think it's cruel (to the infants) to let them live.

Life should be good. If right from birth you won't get a chance for happiness, then why bother?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:14 pm 
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Labrat wrote:
I don't really see such an epidemic of fucking mutants, however. People with too many things wrong with them tend to be self limiting, being incapable of attracting a mate or physically unable to carry child.


You'd be surprised how often this is proven wrong. Really lonely people (with lack of positive self-images) can have pretty low standards when it comes to procreation.

Also, any thoughts about potential benefical deformities? Like an extra finger or some such? I know most parents will opt for corrective surgery early on to make their child look 'normal', but are they also stripping their kids of a possible edge over everyone else?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:52 pm 
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wolf346 wrote:
Labrat wrote:
I don't really see such an epidemic of fucking mutants, however. People with too many things wrong with them tend to be self limiting, being incapable of attracting a mate or physically unable to carry child.


You'd be surprised how often this is proven wrong. Really lonely people (with lack of positive self-images) can have pretty low standards when it comes to procreation.

Also, any thoughts about potential benefical deformities? Like an extra finger or some such? I know most parents will opt for corrective surgery early on to make their child look 'normal', but are they also stripping their kids of a possible edge over everyone else?


Not really. There's not much (anything) in the modern world that having extra fingers would facilitate, and I don't think extra finger mutations are the sorts of things that would be directly inheritable anyway.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:38 pm 
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Oh, there are an assload of beneficial mutations that would help us out. Though I admit that half of them in some way connect with sexual selection. Once genetic engineering starts up, how long do you think it would take a cute and fluffy catboy to spread his genes thickly across western civilization?

The problem is that there are so many more ways for things to go wrong than right and most beneficial mutations are only beneficial in conjunction with a number of other traits. It is damn near impossible for all to pop up in the same generation.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:47 am 
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Labrat wrote:
Oh, there are an assload of beneficial mutations that would help us out.


Human society is designed specifically for humans, suprisingly enough. Mutations that would be significant enough to grant physical benefits would almost necesarrily put you at a disadvantage when in a human society. Subtle mutations, however, such as a resistance to malaria in malaria ridden countries are visibly selected for as they confer an actual virile life expetency benefit (hello, sickle cell).

What I'm trying to say is, having an extra finger would never (that I can think of) improve your chances of reproducing over a normal ten fingered human's, and even if they did, it's more likely a congenital birth defect than an actual genetic mutation that caused the extra finger in the first place; people born with six fingers routinely have them removed and go on to produce ten fingered babies. This holds true for most "beneficial mutations" you could think of. Evolution usually doesn't suddenly give you new traits, it subtly changes the ones you already have.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:05 pm 
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Oh, you know some madscientist sometime is going to release some sort of retrovirus that is going to fuck with us to no end.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:30 pm 
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I believe that it's a matter that varies from child to child, but I agree that if a retarded baby isn't going to be able to have a normal life, which it's not, the parents should be given the opportunity to put it out of its misery.

But I doubt this will happen any time soon, because welfare people will not want it.
Also, think of the parents, they have to spend the rest of their life bound to a retarded child.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:43 pm 
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As then single most conservative and theological person who has ever been on this board, allow me to present the following bit of anecdotal evidence:

Lets take a man I knew and lets call him Bob, and lets give Bob a wife whom for the sake of this anecdote we shall call Glenda. Further, lets give this hypothetical couple 2 children, one normal, the other severely handicapped. The child who was handicapped was not supposed to live very long a few years at most. This ok none of it is hypothetical and those are their real names, well the child, Brian died a couple of years ago and to this day Bob would still do anything for more time with his son. While at times they may have felt "bound" by Brian's existence far more of the time they felt blessed by Brian, through all of his three and a half decades of life.

Turns out this is a much more common story than one would begin to believe, and further as to Schievo, we are now starting to see much more brain activity in people in similar situations than we could once see. Remember Schievo's husband wanted her dead and had much to gain from her demise. Her parents were willing to continue care and wanted her to live.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:12 am 
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Briareos-Temp wrote:
Remember Schievo's husband wanted her dead and had much to gain from her demise.


Or maybe he just knew it was cruel to keep his wife alive on machines, because her brain was half-liquified.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:58 am 
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Briareos-Temp wrote:
Schievo


If the case doesn't fade into obscurity, I suspect this will become the next Godwin's Law.


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