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 Post subject: Deus Ex Homo
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 2:17 pm 
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For non-latin speakers, that translates to "God from [the] Human", albeit not precisely but close enough.

Some of you may have heard the quote from the Greek philosopher Xenophanes, "Men create the gods in their own image." That refers to the human anthropomorphisation of deities; the "beard in the sky" idea, that represented God-as-human that applies to nearly all cultures, even the Egyptian (human except the head) and taken to its extreme in Jesus, the man-God. Descartes said we all, inherently and naturally, had a conception of God and his attributes and from here went on to demonstrate in a flawed "proof" the existence of God. This all points me to one conclusion:

We have a natural need for a deity and thus we create a deity. More than that we only know ourselves truly, and so we make the deity ourselves. God did not create man in his own image; rather, Man created God in our image, and each of us who believes has his own God, an omnipotent version of themselves, to justify all fears, all beliefs, all prejudices, all actions. God is not superior to us for we are God, each of us individually... and there is no sentience greater than us.

So, uh, yeah... anyone want to disagree?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 2:52 pm 
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The problem with the concept of each of us being our own little God, while it works if that's what you're running off of, dies real quick if you start attempting to explain it to other people who care about a religious base that didn't rely so heavily on subjectivity.

I think the first note would be that all you're really doing is noting and embracing the presence of the superego- and that in God being what it is, can't be discounted as a force of acts so quickly. Your consciousness did not begin existence for everyone else, though you may perceive it that way. Indeed, due to our imperfect perceptions it may seem as though you are the "center of the universe", so to speak.

Personally, so long as what you're doing makes you happy and doesn't endanger the lives of those you interact with, whatever floats your boat.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 2:57 pm 
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But that still doesn't deal with God itself... and its logical nonexistence. Therein lies a problem; we perceive ourselves as God, that's all I'm saying, not that we are Gods; rather that we are the closest thing to being a deity that can exist.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:03 pm 
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But the real problem here is that what if people do not see themselves as God? My comment about it being subjective still stands- obviously, those that think otherwise are going to think otherwise, and logical appeal isn't exactly going to help in the process. Am I missing something, here?

As, thinking about it, I know plenty of people that see themselves as being as far away from deified as they can get.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:04 pm 
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Rusty wrote:
But the real problem here is that what if people do not see themselves as God? My comment about it being subjective still stands- obviously, those that think otherwise are going to think otherwise, and logical appeal isn't exactly going to help in the process. Am I missing something, here?

As, thinking about it, I know plenty of people that see themselves as being as far away from deified as they can get.

How many religious people think they know God's mind? Is that not a form of thinking they are God? Oh, its not direct, but it is the exact equivalent to it!

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 Post subject: Re: Deus Ex Homo
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:05 pm 
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Ozymandias wrote:
For non-latin speakers, that translates to "God from [the] Human", albeit not precisely but close enough.


First I want to disagree with your translation. What you have is "God out of Same" which I would completely agree with. As in the ancient creeds
"God from God.
Light from Light.
True God from True God
begotten not made."

To begin with We need to properly define terms.
1)If by god you mean that imaginary being that we each as man develop in our longing for our creator then yes man makes gods in his own image and you should change your phrase to be Deus ex Homo Hominus / Mens Mentis (mind)
2)If by god you mean some being greater than us by some emergent property whereby collectively we create god or gods that is a different thing also to which I would deny existance. Then your statement should read "Deus ex hominibus"
3) If by God you mean that being which uncreated is the prime motivator then by definition He cannot be from man.

Can we then assume that you are speaking of the first?


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 Post subject: Re: Deus Ex Homo
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:11 pm 
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Briareos wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:
For non-latin speakers, that translates to "God from [the] Human", albeit not precisely but close enough.


First I want to disagree with your translation. What you have is "God out of Same" which I would completely agree with. As in the ancient creeds
"God from God.
Light from Light.
True God from True God
begotten not made."


Latin term homo means human being or person; greek term 'ομο means "same"...

Quote:
To begin with We need to properly define terms.
1)If by god you mean that imaginary being that we each as man develop in our longing for our creator then yes man makes gods in his own image and you should change your phrase to be Deus ex Homo Hominus or Mens Mentis (mind)

Or just Deus Ex Homo, God from Man, as it does not need to be precise.
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2)If by god you mean some being greater than us by some emergent property whereby collectively we create god or gods that is a different thing also to which I would deny existance.
3) If by God you mean that being which uncreated is the prime motivator then by definition He cannot be from man.

Can we then assume that you are speaking of the first?

Yes, you can. Since I disagree with the very idea of the third in terms of actual existence.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:21 pm 
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Well since the first is a trivial matter, it is of no consequence to me. Have fun with it. When you decide to work on something of substance (either of the others let me know). Also when debating, yes you have to be precise, at least if you want it to be meaningful.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:36 pm 
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I think maybe someone stumbled across a Nietzsche display in Barnes and Nobles on the way to the cafe...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:44 pm 
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"If God did not exist we would be forced to invent him."

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:53 am 
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Ever read Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land"?

Solipsism (sp?).
a) The rest of you are figments of my imagination.
b) God is "the" creator.
a+b=
c)I am God.

Have a good day.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:11 am 
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Gazing Rabbit wrote:
Ever read Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land"?

Solipsism (sp?).
a) The rest of you are figments of my imagination.
b) God is "the" creator.
a+b=
c)I am God.

Have a good day.

Requires Cartesian doubt... which according to logical positivism is meaningless.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:10 am 
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Ozymandias wrote:
Requires Cartesian doubt... which according to logical positivism is meaningless.


metaphysical, theological, and ethical statementsa are all meaningless to logical positivitism therefore logical positivism is useless AFAIAC

27 hours of Philosophy in Uni and I never ran across anything as useless in the texts as LP.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:39 am 
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Briareos wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:
Requires Cartesian doubt... which according to logical positivism is meaningless.


metaphysical, theological, and ethical statementsa are all meaningless to logical positivitism therefore logical positivism is useless AFAIAC

27 hours of Philosophy in Uni and I never ran across anything as useless in the texts as LP.

All of Descartes' Meditations after the cogito, seeing as they then become logically inconsistent (let's use logic, which the "evil demon" may be deceiving us about, to find certainty! Nope, fraid not). Or how about Paley, or Anselm' ontological argument?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:27 am 
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Or you know, humans could have made deities to explain some of those things that happen around them, that they didn't have the understanding to explain yet. Like the Native Americans.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:25 am 
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Kaz*CheesyDoritoBomb* wrote:
Or you know, humans could have made deities to explain some of those things that happen around them, that they didn't have the understanding to explain yet. Like the Native Americans.

"God of the gaps"... but that would only apply if this applied: "We have a natural need for a deity and thus we create a deity.", though with a caveat as follows: "...a natural need for a deity in order to explain that which we do not undertand..."

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:32 am 
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And yet some would argue that humans have a natural need to understand there for creating the need for a deity.


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