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 Post subject: How Do We Save Iraq?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:49 am 
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Sorry, just kiting through today . . .

Anyone have a coherent plan for preventing mass slaughter and oppresion in Iraq? I mean, worse than what is happening now?

Please minimize rants about fighting spirit and moral fault. Looking for solid ideas that work without application of magic wands.

Later, all.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:08 am 
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Shouldn't this be in General Discussion, Boss?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:14 am 
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Probably but since there are no really good answers, there may not be much of a discussion.

Even putting Saddam back in charge wouldn't work, at this point. The problem is that the US doesn't have the stomach for the brutal suppression that is required. Hmm, doesn't have the troop strength either.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:03 am 
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Moved to Debate.

Actor.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:40 am 
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Give the Iraqi government and military time to get on it's feet, and then don't interfere when they start purging the shit out of the country.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:52 am 
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Ask for the co-operationg of Iran and Syria, which at least one of the governments involved (the British) eventually bothered to do last month.

At the moment there's not much they can do. Stay in Iraq and deal with the bloodbath/civil war/insurgency or pull out and be respnsonsible for the ensuing bloodbath/civil war/insugency.

Also, lately several first string British politicians (Margret Beckett et all) have admitted that the it's time to consider the implenmentation of the 'worst case' scenario and take steps which will lead to the partition of the nation along religious lines as this is no-longer the worst case scenario prediction.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:52 am 
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Yorik wrote:
Give the Iraqi government and military time to get on it's feet, and then don't interfere when they start purging the shit out of the country.


Like I said, US citizenry doesn't have the stomache for it. You'll never get them to let this happen.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:00 am 
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The citizenry of the United States has no say in the matter.

Also, Onion, seeing as how Iran and Syria are among our next targets, I doubt speaking with their current governments will be worth much.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:07 am 
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Yorik wrote:
The citizenry of the United States has no say in the matter.

Also, Onion, seeing as how Iran and Syria are among our next targets, I doubt speaking with their current governments will be worth much.


That's your problem right there. That America considered them targets in the first place. But given that entire de-stabalisation of the middle east is something that most people want to stay away from it has become necessary to to involve other countries from the area. In fact, Tony Blair recently stated that his original intent was to involve both Iran and Syria in the rebuilding of Iraq (although common sense would dictate that he would have asked before invading but given the slap dash irresponsibility of military action you can guess for yourself why this didn't happen). Something that in fact seems necessary as the promised rebuilding of the Irag by foreign aid has fallen through due to the nature of the insurgency in the country.

Check your facts. The request for help has been made and seems to be the only real method of effecting change for the long term good. Not to mention the blatant dissention in the 'ranks' as it were, between the British and American governments and the ever changing political landscape of both countries. As a matter of fact the nature of Iran and Syria *as* targets has somewhat been called into question after the results of the recent American elections as have many of the decision and plans for the future that were made under a Republican dominated government. Add to this the departure of Tony Blair from office by the middle of 2007, his replacement by the most likely candidate - Gordon Brown - and the battle his adminstration finds itself in with the ever more popular Conservative opposition and you have a situation in which all future plans for Iraq may well find themselves under scrutiny and re-appraisal.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:47 am 
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The only way for the situation in Iraq to turn out well by American standards is for the citizens of Iraq to grow up and take some responsibility for their country.The sad thing is that the region is so factionalized that that will never happen.

I have two other situations that while I think are reasonable but no one will ever fly for:

One is total pull out to the border edge and let them fight things out without the neighbours interfering.

The second is my personal favourite and helps America out also. We ship all the illegal immigrants from America there as well as all of our hardened criminal population and use forced labour to build a new great wall of china... just this time it is the great wall of Iraq all the way around the thing. Come back in 150 years and it will all be over. Money says they will have decent beer, play cricket and be a good world player; after all it worked for Australia didn’t it?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:05 pm 
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Briareos wrote:
The only way for the situation in Iraq to turn out well by American standards is for the citizens of Iraq to grow up and take some responsibility for their country.The sad thing is that the region is so factionalized that that will never happen.

I have two other situations that while I think are reasonable but no one will ever fly for:

One is total pull out to the border edge and let them fight things out without the neighbours interfering.

The second is my personal favourite and helps America out also. We ship all the illegal immigrants from America there as well as all of our hardened criminal population and use forced labour to build a new great wall of china... just this time it is the great wall of Iraq all the way around the thing. Come back in 150 years and it will all be over. Money says they will have decent beer, play cricket and be a good world player; after all it worked for Australia didn’t it?


...

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:59 pm 
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I posted on this some time ago. The problem is that there is a huge problem in achieving that goal.

Throughout this whole thing, my respect for Chirac has done nothing but rise. The man knows whereof he speaks. But the current situation has no simple solution. The earlier post about Iraqi's taking ownership is bunk. Saddam had this shit under control, regardless of what we may have thought about him. Hell, America is who put him in power to begin with and Bush should have left him there, just like his dad recommended.

The only ethical way out, and this is gonna cost the US a fortune, is to take on Iraq as a protectorate and pour massive amounts of money and man-power into the place. Not to mention the police needed to properly close the borders and weed out the foriegn fighters. This is at least a ten-year effort.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:32 pm 
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Considering I'm sitting here in Baghdad right now and my job focuses directly on tracking what is going on "outside the wire" as we like to call it. I think I have a pretty good perspective on what is going on right now. Things are not good.

Secritarian violence is huge. There are large organized kidnapping rings. As we give more control to the IA we find that they are more and more corrupt and completely ineffective. Private armies like Sadar's JAM run this city.

Aside from the staggering amount of barrier blockings and the enforced curfew this is exactly what anarchy looks like. This is a country of people who all want to be the next Saddam. The way I see it is as soon as we leave someone will attempt a coup. Most attacks on US forces are imported from Syria or Iran.

The only way I see to really win this thing is, to sit tight until we kill off nearly every male of fighting age. While winning over the hearts and minds of the women and children and old people with public works efforts. Similarly like what happened to Germany in WWII. At the current progress rate I believe this could be accomplished in the next ten years. We would end up with a wealthy United States friendly ally.

Anther option is to just cut and run and set up an American friendly dictator through arms supply who we will have to come back in another 20-30 years to clean up. This will prolly be the route the Democrats will take when they wrest control of the government from Republicans for the next 8 years.

Aren't politics fun kids? :911:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:44 pm 
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Just wondering... How the fuck did you ever think that the main ES forum was the proper place to drop this post?
And were illegal substances in any way involved.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:46 pm 
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Tiamat wrote:
Shouldn't this be in General Discussion, Boss?

Huh? I thought it was in debate club? Did I violate a rule somewhere?

Most of the media discussion on Iraq keeps missing the point, any point, so I thought I'd sow the wind here and see what blows by.

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Last edited by Boss Out of Town on Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:52 pm 
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Labrat wrote:
Just wondering... How the fuck did you ever think that the main ES forum was the proper place to drop this post?
And were illegal substances in any way involved.


Yeah. We're not supposed to be trying to save Iraq here. We should be discussing how to save Santuariel.

Iraq is off on that other, mythical world that has little relevance to anything here.

Anyway, Santuariel is probably an easier case than Iraq. I mean, it's only facing marauding elf rangers who want to eradicate everyone there. But at least its own citizens aren't kidnapping and slaughtering each other (yet).


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 Post subject: Re: How Do We Save Iraq?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:41 pm 
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Boss Out of Town wrote:
Sorry, just kiting through today . . .

Anyone have a coherent plan for preventing mass slaughter and oppresion in Iraq? I mean, worse than what is happening now?

Please minimize rants about fighting spirit and moral fault. Looking for solid ideas that work without application of magic wands.

Later, all.


1) Surrender operations to an international body (the U.N., or some other coalition, preferably including other middle-eastern states either way).

2) Offer our full military backing for whatever their solution is.

3) Suggest as a solution that we (the international community):

i) Allow the various Iraqi factions to form their own regional governments as they please (e.g. allow Kurdistan to secede if they like).

ii) Offer defense again all foreign powers (incl. other parts of the state formally known as Iraq) to any faction that manages to establish domestic peace within their region. ("Domestic peace" also including just governance, so we don't end up helping despotic tyrants).

iii) Encourage diplomatic and trade relations between the various factions / states, possibly leading toward eventual reunification; and if not, no big deal.

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 Post subject: Re: How Do We Save Iraq?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:33 pm 
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Reality check:
Forrest wrote:
1) Surrender operations to an international body (the U.N., or some other coalition, preferably including other middle-eastern states either way).

Forget it. Bush screwed that option when he went unilateral. The EU, for one, is saying "we told you 'No' and we meant 'No'. Now you know why we said 'No'." Chirac(FR) and Schroeder(DE) both took a lot of shit from America for refusing to go along with the invasion. Do you remember the "Freedom Fries" thing? That wasn't the worst of it. American boycotts of EU business and tourism did a lot of economic damage over here.

I'm in Swiss Romande, Francophone country. While they have no great love for the French, they caught a bunch of the anti-French sentiment and the anti-french jokes too.

If you are thinking that Bush's last little junket healed things up over here, then you are delusional, as delusional as Bush is. The EU is fairly united in this, they don't like being called cowards because they refuse to be stupid.

In case you are wondering, the UK isn't really a part of Continental Europe, we just let them think they are. One sometimes humors the retarded :wink:
Forrest wrote:
2) Offer our full military backing for whatever their solution is.

That's not a convincer. For one thing, that requires trust and they don't quite trust the US anymore. Bush did a good job there as well.

Forrest wrote:
3) Suggest as a solution that we (the international community):

i) Allow the various Iraqi factions to form their own regional governments as they please (e.g. allow Kurdistan to secede if they like).

The Kurdistan issue will bring in Turkey so fast that it'll make your head spin. They will invade, period. They damned near did it anyway, while Bush was having his little tea party. Bush had to promise them that Iraq wouldn't be allowed to break up.

Forrest wrote:
ii) Offer defense again all foreign powers (incl. other parts of the state formally known as Iraq) to any faction that manages to establish domestic peace within their region. ("Domestic peace" also including just governance, so we don't end up helping despotic tyrants).

That does not resolve the ethical problem. The US broke the Iraqi egg. It is the US's responsibility to either make a nice omelette or repair the egg. It's the old 'you broke it, you own it!' principle.

Forrest wrote:
iii) Encourage diplomatic and trade relations between the various factions / states, possibly leading toward eventual reunification; and if not, no big deal.

So you would abandon the Iraqi people after turning their world into shit? Nice guy you are. This is why Amrican reputation suffers so.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:14 am 
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I have the perfect solution - Launch many good ol' nukes that we haven't been using for a long ass time and need to be used before they become defunct. Turn the entire stretch into the World's biggest Mirror, look into the mirror and say, "Damn, I look good in this mirror."

We'll have peace for many decades because then the rest of the world will know we're still as psycho and gun-crazy as we were when we dropped The bombs on Japan.

As fucked up as it may sound, I honestly think it would be the best thing to do. There's so much back-stabbing, infighting, Cult of Martyrdom and hatred that they're gonna do it anyways so why not expedite the timetable?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:43 am 
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1,500,000 allied soldiers, some of them in Afghanistan.

While I'm dreaming of unification of the West I get a pony as well and windy scottish moors to ride on.



Read the 'Great War for Civilization' by Fisk? I think nuking the Middle East would be denying our own faults in this conflict, confusing them with insane people (they're rational people who're under attack and poor as well as crazy muslims) also it would provoke the rest of the world a lot and be a major ecological setback and well... ok I guess you're just dreaming like me. Besides the radiation would hit Israel.

Pull out of Iraq and use Saudi Arabia as a proxy?

Our enemies, God bless them, would only kill each other anyway, we should look out for the Kurds, but Israel and the US are already supplying them. Promise to defend Iraqi Kurdistan, leave the Turkish and Iranian minorities to suffer, help Saudi Arabia fight the war for us and stamp out Hamas and Hezbollah.
Also, work on switching to other fuels to screw Iran.

Ooh, now I remember, dropping nukes on Japan wasn't exactly guncrazy, it was a reasonable way to deal with a dead-end opponent. Iraq didn't really declare war on us in the first place, they occasionally supported terrorists but all they really did was to be the only government in the world that I've heard of applaud the 11/9.


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