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It's a stinking, shambling corpse grotesquely parodying life.
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 Post subject: Two words
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:52 am 
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This was actually my second thought, the first was that he was slightly foppish.... but then I suddenly realised who Rarune remided me of.....

Gilderoy Lockheart

Least I think I spelled his name right, diddn't bother to look it up.

p.s. Finally decided to register to comment

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:55 am 
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Lightning post-fu!

He reminds me of Chairman Kaga. Not the new one, the original recipe.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:22 pm 
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Rakshasa wrote:
By human standards, probably not... But for such an isolated and long-lived race 20 years is quite frequent.

Given that Elves apparently never visit Tsychic-Raku and humans are not allowed to visit the Elves, there is not really much need for contact. It isn't like they are competing for trade or influence.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:27 pm 
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Theros wrote:
Oh damnit.

He's rather FOPPISH, isn't he. Just a little effete . . .

The gaudy clothing and neat haircut don't mean that much. Some of the nastiest bad-ass humans who ever lived dressed to the nines at all times.

I suppose he's a fop if Poe wants him to be one and something else if Poe wants him to be something else.

We need to know more about his behavior and thinking to see past the costume.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:22 pm 
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I have the feeling that I read somestuff that does not go with my anderstanding of the story.


Tsuiraku disappearance: Tsuiraku disappearance was NOT what provoqued the Errant War.
For a certain time a bunch of xeonophobic, self-centrist-religious crasy elfs were talking again half-elfe and human (other the pityfull servant), they weren't a majority, but they were talking loudly, upgrading tention between the different faction.

The half-elve and humain, who had to endure the degrading rethoric of those guys, were mostly involve in Tsuiraku's building and populating process. When Tsuiraku disappear, it provoqued a movement of anger and frustration whithin the human and half-elf population, specialy since the relious extremist elfs were blaming the half-elf population for that event, and like every mouvement of anger, they were looking fo someone or something to repport their anger on. The easy choice was this groupe of xenophobic elfs, who use the anger to prove that humain and half-elf are unstable, untrustable and want to kill elfs destroy the elve's way of life. Increasing a tension already largely built between them closer to break in a full scale war than ever.

In those situation those fact are just a drop (small or big) , and the reappearance of Tsuiraku would most likely not be something that would lead the elfs to question themself: after all the ARE the most perfect race created by the gods, so if everyone is wrong, they are the ones who are most likely the less wrong of all, itsn't it?



Now for the ambassador and the show of force: when Sarine arrived, they(Tsuiraku official) thinked she was the ambassador, and they were surprise that she arrived that early, not that she was alone or just with 2 humans.
We have to remember that the errant war never happen in Tsuiraku, the amount of hate, anger or suspicion between common human and elfs does not really existed overthere. The offical were told that the ambassador would come "with additionnal personnel/guard" meanning it wasn't (haven't been) the case before THIS visit, plus Sarine give them a "false" clue, telling them that some trouble within the elf society is responsible for that deployement of force.
So discussiong about the ambassador value of show of force in the normal visit at Tsuiraku seems a little off in my opinion,

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:17 pm 
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Neko7 wrote:
Tsuiraku disappearance: Tsuiraku disappearance was NOT what provoqued the Errant War.


The disappearance of Tsuiraku provoked the Errar War like the assassination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand provoked World War I - that is, precisely the way you just described it. By itself it's not a sufficient explanation, but it's the spark that set off all the combustibles that were already filling up the room.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:10 pm 
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Forrest wrote:
Neko7 wrote:
Tsuiraku disappearance: Tsuiraku disappearance was NOT what provoqued the Errant War.


The disappearance of Tsuiraku provoked the Errar War like the assassination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand provoked World War I - that is, precisely the way you just described it. By itself it's not a sufficient explanation, but it's the spark that set off all the combustibles that were already filling up the room.



Tsuiraku disappearance is the event that allow the extremist agenda to pick up steam. and they exploited that until the situation reach the lvl of war.

your comparaison seems to me misplace.

If I have to compare i will do that by sayind -- YES I KNOW you will NOT like or probably agree with me here -- it's like 9/11 provoked the invasion of Iraq.

9/11 didn't provoked the invasion of Iraq.
It allow those who have this project on their agenda to pick up steam and use it to push their opinion and desire, for the nation, forward.

http://www.errantstory.com/archive.php?date=2004-11-17
http://www.errantstory.com/archive.php?date=2004-11-19
http://www.errantstory.com/archive.php?date=2004-11-22
http://www.errantstory.com/archive.php?date=2004-11-29
http://www.errantstory.com/archive.php?date=2004-12-01
http://www.errantstory.com/archive.php?date=2004-12-03

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:35 pm 
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I think maybe we're using different senses of the term "provoke", even though I think we're trying to say the same thing (my reply was merely trying to say that you can rightly call the relation of Tsuiraku's disappearance to the Errant War "provoking"). This is why I mentioned Archduke Ferdinand. Everybody says that World War I happened because this one guy got killed, but nobody's that popular. His death just provided an excuse for European powers to start acting on the tensions and hostilities that were already there. Likewise, the 9/11 attacks provided an excuse for a war that Bush & co had been wanting for a while. And the disappearance of Tsuiraku provided an excuse for elves, half-elves and humans to really start fighting.

Maybe "instigate" is a better word to use, but I think we agree on the general idea - it was an event which kicked off a series of events that were already waiting to happened. Hence my analogy of a spark setting off explosives - everything was already waiting to blow up, it just needed a little push to get going. The subsequent explosion isn't so much a reaction to the spark, as the spark just allowed a reaction that was waiting to happen (between the different agents - elves and half-elves in this case - not between the spark and the agents), to happen. When fire burns, it's not the heat and the fuel reacting, it's the fuel and oxygen - heat just lets them get started, it's a catalyst. Likewise, WWI, the present mess in Iraq, and the Errant War weren't *reactions to* Ferdinand's assassination, 9/11, or Tsuiraku's disappearance, but they occurred as a result of those catalytic events. Those events just made the conditions right so that the reaction could occur.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:37 pm 
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Graybeard wrote:
Slamlander wrote:
Rakshasa wrote:
No one yet to comment on the inevitable repercussions of ambassador Rarune's proclamation of the strength of their relations with the rest of the world?


Usual empty salutory-speak. One visit per 20 years is not a strong connection, even for Elves. Praenubilus Astu is still self-isolated and intends to stay that way for the near term.


Actually, Rakshasa is right. In the real world, the "salutory-speak" in these situations is very carefully crafted and heavily nuanced. I've been involved in some of that crafting on occasion, and the first thing that came to mind when I looked at the exact phrasing of Rarune's salutation was "what on earth did he mean by that? It's an odd turn of phrase, and there IS more to it than meets the eye."

My immediate thought was "this is something to do with Meji."

Of course, after a more careful reading it looks like it's not relations between the two nations, but between them and the rest of the (civilized) world.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:18 pm 
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Forrest wrote:
I think maybe we're using different senses of the term "provoke", even though I think we're trying to say the same thing (my reply was merely trying to say that you can rightly call the relation of Tsuiraku's disappearance to the Errant War "provoking"). This is why I mentioned Archduke Ferdinand. Everybody says that World War I happened because this one guy got killed, but nobody's that popular. His death just provided an excuse for European powers to start acting on the tensions and hostilities that were already there. Likewise, the 9/11 attacks provided an excuse for a war that Bush & co had been wanting for a while. And the disappearance of Tsuiraku provided an excuse for elves, half-elves and humans to really start fighting.

Maybe "instigate" is a better word to use, but I think we agree on the general idea - it was an event which kicked off a series of events that were already waiting to happened. Hence my analogy of a spark setting off explosives - everything was already waiting to blow up, it just needed a little push to get going. The subsequent explosion isn't so much a reaction to the spark, as the spark just allowed a reaction that was waiting to happen (between the different agents - elves and half-elves in this case - not between the spark and the agents), to happen. When fire burns, it's not the heat and the fuel reacting, it's the fuel and oxygen - heat just lets them get started, it's a catalyst. Likewise, WWI, the present mess in Iraq, and the Errant War weren't *reactions to* Ferdinand's assassination, 9/11, or Tsuiraku's disappearance, but they occurred as a result of those catalytic events. Those events just made the conditions right so that the reaction could occur.



I thinks the main difference is in our vision of the interaction:

In my eyes the death of Archduke Ferdinand is a "domino line effect": two country already in agreesive hate. In direct answerto the the death of Archduke Ferdinand, one attack the other.
The other one have contract of war support with others nations who attacked the first one attacker, but the first attacker also had contract of war support with others nations, who attacked the other nations who attacked the first one attacker.
Domino line effet: I make one fall, all the others follow.

Iraq war: One traumatising event affect an entire population: a group with an agenda of war use the traumatism effect to shape the thinking of their nation to accomplish a goal that have absolutly no direct connection with the event, to make what they wish to happen happen.
Nothing in the 9/11 event was justifing going to war overthere, it was just a population opinion manipulation act.

In the same way, the Errant War wasn't a Domino line effet: Without the extremist pushing the agenda on the common elf opinion and gouvernment policy, the errat war wouldn't have happen, not at this time a least.

This is why I say that even if Tsuiraku had disappear, this is not the reason of the Errant War.

And that's why the fact that Tsuiraku had reappeared did not change anything in the opinion of the elves about the errants.
This was not an Action<->Reaction problem, therefore the elves have no reason to not find the Errant war non-justified.


Edit: Ashamed I am... :sweatdrop: :sweatdrop: :bang: :bang: :tears:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:23 am 
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If you don't mind, I'll try to re-parse your grammar and sort out the franglais. Any doubts about you being in France are now dispelled. :wink: At least, over here. You have a slightly different "take" on these things but I think, at bottom, that we are in agreement. :wink:

French has structures, dealing with social interaction, that English does not have. Therefore, it is difficult to translate and convey the meanings of those structures that you find so natural. It's a slightly different way of looking at societies and how they work; the French way of looking at things. It is almost more important to know that this difference exists than to define what, exactly, those differences are. Yes, my French is abyssimal. English is flexible but sometimes you need a common referant or that flexibility does you no good.

Neko7 wrote:
I have the feeling that I read somestuff that does not go with my anderstanding of the story.

Tsuiraku disappearance: Tsuiraku's disappearance was NOT what provoked the Errant War.

For a certain time a bunch of xenophobic, self-centrist-religious-crazy elves were talking against half-elves and humans (other the pityfull servant), they weren't a majority, but they were talking loudly, increasing the tensions between the different faction.


Yes, the religious whackos were creating a ruckus. Note that Meji also said that Tsuiraku was hidden to avoid the religious nuts. She wasn't talking about the Veracians/Luminositans there, Tsuiraku disappeared before they existed. The only group that could apply to were the Elves and humans who were preaching that elves mixing with humans was evil and that half-elves were an abomination. They were probably using the occasional Errant birth as a sign of this abomination status.

Slamlander wrote:
Remember that Tsuiraku's disappearance was the major trigger for the Errant War.


Nowhere did I imply that it was the only cause.

Neko7 wrote:
The half-elves and humans, who had to endure the degrading rethoric of those guys, were mostly involved in Tsuiraku's building and populating process. When Tsuiraku disappeared, it should have provoked a surge of anger and frustration within the human and half-elf population, specialy since the religous extremist elves were blaming the half-elf population for that event, and like every surge of anger, they were looking for someone or something to focus their anger on. The easy choice was this group of xenophobic elves, who use the anger to prove that humain and half-elf are unstable, untrustworthy, and want to kill and destroy the elve's way of life. Increasing the tension already largely built between them closer to a full scale war than ever.


This is where we depart from current cannon but not by much and it's largely an interpretive issue. From Sarine's statements we know that it escalated pretty fast, less than a month. I actually think that you are more correct, given the data from Meji's earlier statement. However, it's a very subtle difference and not enough to revise the Wiki, yet. (I will be making a note of it though.)

Neko7 wrote:
In that situation, those fact are just a drop in the bucket, and the reappearance of Tsuiraku would most likely not be something that would lead the elves to question themselves; after all they ARE the most perfect race created by the gods, so if everyone is wrong, they are the ones who are most likely the less wrong of all, non?


Elvish arrogance is certainly not to be understated. :wink:

Neko7 wrote:
Now for the ambassador and the show of force: when Sarine arrived, they(Tsuiraku official) thought that she was the ambassador, and they were surprised that she arrived that early (not that she was alone or just with 2 humans).
We have to remember that the errant war never happened in Tsuiraku, the amount of hate, anger or suspicion between common human and elves did not really exist there. The officals were told that the ambassador would arrive "with additional personnel/guards", meaning that it wasn't the case before THIS visit, plus Sarine give them a "false" clue, telling them that some trouble within the elf society is responsible for that deployement of force.


Non! The officials were only told that the ambassador would be coming early everything else was a part of Sarine's fabrication.

Neko7 wrote:
So discussions about the ambassador value of show of force in the normal visit at Tsuiraku seems a little off in my opinion,


Actually not. But not for the reasons you think. Such posturing always happens. Where it becomes significant is when Rarune discovers that he has a half-elf daughter and that she may indeed be the one that evreyone is looking for. He may not learn both of those things at once. Regardless, his desire to do {whatever} to his daughter will be tempered by what he saw during the posturing. He will know that tearing through Tsuiraku, chasing after her, and leaving massive collateral damage in his wake, is neither going to succeed nor is it even going to be possible before the battle mages try to stop him (and they would probably succeed, since there are enough of them).

So, pre-empted from a destructive rage, he will have to come up with other tactics. Ambassadors aren't usually insanely stupid or psychotic.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:39 am 
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Slamlander wrote:
This is where we depart from current cannon but not by much and it's largely an interpretive issue. From Sarine's statements we know that it escalated pretty fast, less than a month.


Here we need a precision:

I read "The war started one month AFTER the motion to propose to put the Errant out of their misery before they had a chance to become dangerous"

But I have the impression that (you? others peoples?) read "The war started one month AFTER the disappearance of Tsuiraku"

This is different because between the time when the extremists' agenda started picking up steam and the moment when they were enough confident/have enough power to propose the "half-elfe cleaning" motion, some time could have past.
This is one line in sarine summary of the story, I believe because this is a direct concequence of the "steaming up", but it's not clear (for me) how long it toke to get there ( May be one month? May be six? ).



Slamlander wrote:
Neko7 wrote:
Now for the ambassador and the show of force: when Sarine arrived, they(Tsuiraku official) thought that she was the ambassador, and they were surprised that she arrived that early (not that she was alone or just with 2 humans).
We have to remember that the errant war never happened in Tsuiraku, the amount of hate, anger or suspicion between common human and elves did not really exist there. The officals were told that the ambassador would arrive "with additional personnel/guards", meaning that it wasn't the case before THIS visit, plus Sarine give them a "false" clue, telling them that some trouble within the elf society is responsible for that deployement of force.


Non! The officials were only told that the ambassador would be coming early everything else was a part of Sarine's fabrication.


I diseagree. From the link that you gave, third panel:

"Honor guard?
They mentioned he would have several other people would* be arriving with him, but..."


(* wait! Is that usual english? The repetition song wrong to me...
But the last time I have this impression I was wrong,
so I leave that to the native's english people to decide)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:56 am 
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Neko7 wrote:
Slamlander wrote:
This is where we depart from current cannon but not by much and it's largely an interpretive issue. From Sarine's statements we know that it escalated pretty fast, less than a month.


Here we need a precision:

I read "The war started one month AFTER the motion to propose to put the Errant out of their misery before they had a chance to become dangerous"

But I have the impression that (you? others peoples?) read "The war started one month AFTER the disappearance of Tsuiraku"


Yes, "A month later, it blossomed into a full out civil war."

Neko7 wrote:
This is different because between the time when the extremists' agenda started picking up steam and the moment when they were enough confident/have enough power to propose the "half-elfe cleansing" motion.
This is one line in sarine summary of the story, I believe because this is a direct concequence of the "steaming up", but it's not clear (for me) how long it took to get there ( May be one month? May be six? ).


The steam was already building pressure since the destruction of Malacia (one year). The disappearance of Tsuirakushiti gave them the extra pressure to push their cleansing agenda forward which culminated one month after the disappearance of Tsuirakushiti. We can reasonably extrapolate now that this buildup of religious extremist pressure is why the Tsuirakuans decided to disappear.

You may indeed be correct in your assertion that the disappearance of Tsuirakushiti was a result of this pressure and that it only accelerated the approach of a civil war that was going to happen anyway.

Neko7 wrote:
"Honor guard?
They mentioned he would have several other people would* be arriving with him, but..."


(* wait! Is that usual english? The repetition sounds wrong to me...
But the last time I have this impression I was wrong, so I leave that to the native's english people to decide)


I sort of discount that entire sentence because, it doesn't parse for me either. The only one that could clarify it is Poe.

Edit: Note that She's not actually going to say what this damned problem was, is she?, and indeed, she never said. Although, I suspect that it's related to the hiding place of Anilis, the fact that the Council was keeping it a secret, and why.

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Slamlander wrote:
Note that She's not actually going to say what this damned problem was, is she?, and indeed, she never said. Although, I suspect that it's related to the hiding place of Anilis, the fact that the Council was keeping it a secret, and why.


I don't think so. It sounds as if the elves themselves were starting to develop some impairment or disease and it got blamed on the elven-human intercourse and subsequently on half-elves.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:01 am 
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Slamlander wrote:
We can reasonably extrapolate now that this buildup of religious extremist pressure is why the Tsuirakuans decided to disappear.


Or it was a purely human plot to steal the more-favored and indulged half-elves bright golden chance and make off with their own civilization by stealing trillions of dollars of infrastructure along with a sizable breeding population and most of their own cultural elites. Thus avoiding their increasingly obvious fate as a permament underclass in an Elf/Half-Elf world.

In this version the reason why there aren't any elves or half-elves in Tsuiraku is because a cabal of human mages killed them all three-and-a-half seconds after they switched on their secret illegal cloaking device and two seconds before they started to fly the city to its new location hovering over a lake on the unihabited periphery of Rinkai territory.

The half-elves being left holding the bag is just an unintended consequence they frankly didn't give a damn about, they'd have been plotting that well before Malacia.

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All this indepth conversation is skirting the true issue: his face.

I just fucking hate his face :evil:


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normalphil wrote:
Slamlander wrote:
We can reasonably extrapolate now that this buildup of religious extremist pressure is why the Tsuirakuans decided to disappear.


Or it was a purely human plot to steal the more-favored and indulged half-elves bright golden chance and make off with their own civilization by stealing trillions of dollars of infrastructure along with a sizable breeding population and most of their own cultural elites. Thus avoiding their increasingly obvious fate as a permament underclass in an Elf/Half-Elf world.

In this version the reason why there aren't any elves or half-elves in Tsuiraku is because a cabal of human mages killed them all three-and-a-half seconds after they switched on their secret illegal cloaking device and two seconds before they started to fly the city to its new location hovering over a lake on the unihabited periphery of Rinkai territory.

The half-elves being left holding the bag is just an unintended consequence they frankly didn't give a damn about, they'd have been plotting that well before Malacia.



Or may be, since the half-elf weren't a race by itself andthe anger between them and the human mage wasn't exacerbed, between the time that they disappear and the time that they had lost the cloaking device, half-elf have procreated with human so much that the "elf blood" became so diluated that everyone was, in apparence, totally human. In fact this is possible that most of Tsuiraku's population, at a genetic level, have elf aspect and be an half-elf descendant.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:51 am 
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Am I the only one with a vague liking for the guy?


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Nah, I thought he had potential to be one mean bastard. It's just hard to make a decision after the guy spoke one prefabricated line.

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Kest wrote:
Am I the only one with a vague liking for the guy?


No! :wink:

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