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 Post subject: The time has come...
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:18 pm 
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Errant Story's wikipedia page is getting lined up for the chopping block on grounds of 'notability'. To be honest, I'd been waiting for this... which is why I regularly check the page. Hail paranoia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Errant_Story

While Errant Story has a good and developed wiki of its own, having a article in wikipedia is a real help, especially for a comic that is meant as a comercial enterprise. We'll be wanting to keep that page up.

Wikipedia wrote:
If you are familiar with the subject matter, please expand the article to establish its notability. The best way to address this concern is to reference published, third-party sources about the subject. If notability cannot be established, the article is more likely to be considered for deletion, per Wikipedia:Guide to deletion.


If there's as much as three days to do something about this, I'll be surprised.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:32 pm 
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So essentially it needs links to critical reviews, fansites etc?

Seems a bit stupid to require that.

Actor.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:50 pm 
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actor_au wrote:
So essentially it needs links to critical reviews, fansites etc?

Seems a bit stupid to require that.

Actor.


Hey, I know there's some Schlock-ers on this forum, could somebody explain things?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:21 pm 
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I cannot expand the Errant Story article on Wikipedia, and neither can Poe.

If it's important to keep it up, please do. Errant Story has in fact been published, and in my opinion it should therefore be included on those grounds alone, but if they need reviews and fansites, go forth and find 'em.

It should be fairly easy to find external references to Errant Story... it has been the subject of reviews on numerous webcomic sites in addition to winning several WCCA awards and nominations, and a simple Google search should dig that up.

^-^'

Edit: The review of ES in this post actually made me laugh http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=114997

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:52 am 
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Sorry to say, but it may not actually be worth your effort to try and save the article.

Your topic title and post seem to suggest that you are aware of the mass deleting of web comic articles that has been going on over at Wikipedia. Strictly speaking the notability requirements for web comics are quite difficult to prove for any but the most popular of web comics.

With the way that things behind Errant story are run, I find it quite unlikely that you will be able a source that would qualify ES for notability. One thing that could have helped is ES being published in dead tree format however due to it being self published through Caffeine Angel Studios that won't help it qualify for notability.

If ES had been published by a large company, it would count towards it notability. Not to mention it would have been more likely to receive professional reviews which would further enhance its notability.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:09 am 
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I've been aware of the Wikipedia vs. Webcomics thing for a while, thanks to a few other webcomics I follow. (One was axed a couple of months ago.)

Apparently, the PTBs at Wikipedia don't consider the WCCA nominations or even awards to be "notable", since the WCCA exists entirely online. They also don't seem to consider reviews to be "notable" if they're only published online.

An odd stance to take, in my opinion, since Wikipedia itself only exists online...

But if you think it's worth the effort, go ahead and cite whatever awards ES has won and whatever reviews you can dig up.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:23 am 
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I'm not entirely certain why Wikipedia is even important when we have one of our own, but okay.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:08 am 
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BloodHenge wrote:
Apparently, the PTBs at Wikipedia don't consider the WCCA nominations or even awards to be "notable", since the WCCA exists entirely online. They also don't seem to consider reviews to be "notable" if they're only published online.

I wouldn't draw that conclusion, since the WCCA article itself isn't flagged with this concern. Pointing out that Errant Story won a couple of such awards may -- or may not -- suffice as a response. Why isn't the statement at the end of the article sufficient to do that? I have no idea, but I've added some language (a more polite version of "WTF?") to the article talk page that should get that across.

Meanwhile, editiing the article to include references to other awards would strengthen the point. Impy, I understand (and agree with) your position that you and Poe can't edit the article itself to do that, but can you provide references to awards you guys have won? Send via my private e-mail if you wish. I'm a fairly active Wikipedia editor and will happily make the additions.

I do think that the WP article is useful, should be retained, and is helpful to Poe and Impy in the bargain. It serves as an introduction to the comic that's accessible to the very large world-wide WP readership, and therefore can increase the readership of Errant Story itself. That's good.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:20 pm 
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Errant Story Volume One was carried in bookstores nation-wide, and was NOT self-published. It was published by Keenspot Entertainment, not Michael Poe, and it was carried by Perseus Distribution (cdsbooks.com) as well as Diamond. Later volumes may be published by a far more notable publisher, so there is every possibility that later volumes will be carried in bookstores as well. If it turns out to be necessary to have the article go away in the meantime, well... Wikipedia does have the right to make that decision, though I think it's oddly out-of-keeping with their mission statement.

Errant Story appears on Amazon.com, surely that is a sufficiently notable website? It is also still listed on Barnes and Noble's website, though it is shown as being out of stock. http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bookse ... 5075&itm=1

Additionally, Errant Story was to have been featured in an article about a webcomics show that I organized here in Cincinnati, at the Base Gallery. I believe that article was published in the Cincinnati Enquirer on Wednesday, August 17, 2005. There is an additional article from Wednesday, July 27, 2005 that someone might also check.

Also, the WCCA awards are from an organization, it says so on their website. Poe won lots of the things, if you go back and check their records. Personally, I don't think the awards hold much weight, but in terms of establishing notability, they ought to do. Millions of people know about them, so while they aren't the Oscars, they certainly are known. There's a difference between knowing and caring, but notability only requires that many people know of them, not that many people care.

-_-'

Edit: I've adjusted my statement for greater accuracy, since apparently I'm going to be quoted in the argument. Someone correct my statement as listed on Wikipedia, please.

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Last edited by Imp-Chan on Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:43 am 
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It might help the article if remain up if it doesn't contain basic spelling/usage errors, such as the all-too-common confusion between "its" and "it's".

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:17 pm 
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Imp-Chan wrote:
I cannot expand the Errant Story article on Wikipedia, and neither can Poe.

If it's important to keep it up, please do. Errant Story has in fact been published, and in my opinion it should therefore be included on those grounds alone, but if they need reviews and fansites, go forth and find 'em.


I have a Wikipedia account under the same ID as I use here. The problem is that I don't have the time to do that research, as I'm still trying to figure a safe upgrade and testing some MediaWiki back-versions to see if it's worth it to upgrade to them (we need templates that work better). So, give me the links and general info that you want there and I'll get it up there. I can also protect the pages afterwards to keep vandals from doing damage.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:04 pm 
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Yeah. This pretty much sums up my view on Wikipedia:

http://parkerpeters.livejournal.com

Add to that the varions salient Penny Arcade points (I doubt they meet the criteria for 'notability' on Wikipedia).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:47 pm 
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Mista_B wrote:
Yeah. This pretty much sums up my view on Wikipedia:

http://parkerpeters.livejournal.com

Add to that the varions salient Penny Arcade points (I doubt they meet the criteria for 'notability' on Wikipedia).


Thanks, I just friended him.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:28 am 
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Wow.

Sounds like the guys who run Wiki learned all their social and administrative skills from the self-important feebs who run the Classic Battletech official forums.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:58 am 
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Mista_B wrote:
Yeah. This pretty much sums up my view on Wikipedia:

http://parkerpeters.livejournal.com

Add to that the varions salient Penny Arcade points (I doubt they meet the criteria for 'notability' on Wikipedia).

Huh. And I didn't happen to be too impressed with them to begin with...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:04 am 
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Killjoy wrote:
Wow.

Sounds like the guys who run Wiki learned all their social and administrative skills from the self-important feebs who run the Classic Battletech official forums.

I don't think these are the sort of skills that require a mentor.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:09 am 
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I'll say this once;
--
Those that can, do.
Those that can't, teach.
Those that can't even teach, become administrators and bureaucrats!

With regards to Wiki it resolves to this;
Those that can, write the code.
Those that can't, write the articles.
Those that can't even write articles, become bully admins!
--
The most pompous asses that I have ever known,
were all administrators on systems that they don't own.

--
Of course, your friendly neighborhood Slamlander does both code and articles. 8-)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:41 am 
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Slamlander wrote:
The most pompous asses that I have ever known,
were all administrators on systems that they don't own.

--


I agree with that.... wait a second.

Actor.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:01 am 
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Of course, has it occured to anyone that in the grand scale of things, ES really is not notable enough to be in an encyclopaedia? It's ranked ~80,000 on Alexa. If you want to include it, logically you should be including the other 80,000 as well, and I can guarentee the vast majority of those sites do not have wiki entries at the moment.

The mildly painful fact is that most websites are not encylopaedically notable. I love errant story and all, but that doesn't mean it's culturally relevant enough to be in an encylopaedia.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:36 am 
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Alexa is quite probably the worst possible way to judge cultural relevancy ever. We have better traffic than quite a few higher-ranked Alexa sites, I guarantee it, the reason we show as lower is because many of our readers don't use the things that would register with Alexa. Additionally, we update only three times a week, so a comic that updates more often would have higher traffic without necessarily having a larger audience.

I think encyclopaedias are limited only partially on relevance... largely it has traditionally been a matter of budget for space in the book as much as it has been a matter of anything else.

Additionally, webcomics in general are certainly culturally relevant. They're having an enormous impact on the artist's business model, for one thing, and an equally enormous impact on concepts in art for another. They're affecting the publishing models as well. As a webcomic, Errant Story is superlatively well-written and quite well-drawn, and Poe's work has served as an inspiration to many better-known artists on the web. I think that there can be no question of his cultural relvance. The problem is that the wikipedia admins aren't looking for relevance, they're looking for significance.

^-^'

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